DIY MaxiJet Stream (Pic Intense)

[Scott Merrill]

Hi all, I'm the guy that makes the mods for Reefdom. I don't tell them what to sell them for, I just make them. I have to get a certain amount of money to make it worth doing(to cover labor, materials, shop overhead like electricity and heat etc) and then they add on what they need for handling and order processing etc. I understand that a DIYer can make a decent mod for short money, but I'm not making these for the DIYer. I make these for hobbyists that can't or don't want to make them for themselves.
So go ahead and blast me, but I get emails constantly, thanking me for making a good quality product that improves their tank flow tremendously.

The slots are made on a Bridgeport milling machine with a 2 axis CNC retrofit.

Thanks, Patrick

Hello all, Reefdom here, I figure i would chime in.
There seems to be a lot of talk about the price on the kits.
Especially on the impellers at 40.00 ea.

Please keep in mind that after purchasing an impeller, the prop, inbound shipping of both, disassembly, extensive Machining the impeller AND the prop, purchase and shipping of Addtional items for assembly, Ensuring the prop is balanced, assembly, final testing, and then packing for delivery to us(reefdom)... this does take time, effort and skill.
Not to mention the time and effort put into testing and sourcing the right materials. I know Phreef has put his heart into ensuring the quality and has had a significant amount of scrap to make a professional product.

I am sure most of you out there have a primary job that pays the bills.
phreef is a machinist, and his mod build time is no different. His time has value, just as yours and mine.

If anyone out there is willing to put forth the effort to make the same quality product for a much lower cost AND willing to stand behind it the way phreef does, I am all ears.
until then, reefdom has to stand behind its suppliers (including PHreef) to provide quality products that we can stand behind without question.

Honestly, I wish more of our vendors took as much time and effort to test their products as PHreef does.

 

[tekknoschtev]

I dont think anyone was bashing you - just saying that at that price point there are different options available for quality powerheads. I agree that there are a lot of hidden costs incured for you, but I dont think anyone was ripping on you or PHReef.

 

[CLAMM]

Not to get in a debate about the price point, there are many options and this is one of them. The point is to get high 1500gph and low 2000's out of something that isn't that big with low power consumption. One of the tests we have done on this is used a multimeter and kill-o-watt to look at RMS power consumption. This was pulling very low wattage!

So its efficient, w/tons of flow. Test results are going to be released very soon.

 

[Worldwithin]

To all of those associated with reefdom... As I stated before, I have no doubt that this is a quality product, and that we as DIYers don't have the overhead and testing costs to make up. There is no need to get defensive on your product if you truly are not gouging those who are purchasing them. Given that so far there are no hard numbers relating to output and such, aside from wattage, it is difficult to claim performance over other products priced in the same range. If indeed the mod actually has better performance than other products in the same pricepoint, then great!! Currently, since there are many of us out there who have created these at a substantially lower price (again, quality, looks, and overhead aside) that is where the concern of the high cost of your mod comes into question. In looking at your pricing, the difference in price between just the mod and the mod with MJ, you are selling the MJ 1200 for $25, above what other online retailers are selling it for. This by itself is not considered gouging in my book as your price for the pump is at least close to the market value for these power heads, but the question does arise because you are already visablly higher. Sure, quantity discounts and other things apply, but the reality of it is that you are out there to make money.

Nothing wrong with that.

From the view of someone who can, and has, made a similar product for personal use, there is a vast difference in the amount of money that I have spent. Again, I don't have the extra costs associated with what I made.

I give kudos to PHreef... He has made, what appears to be in pictures, a solid looking mod that I don't have the tools nor experience to make.

I do think the prices for everything are rather high, but I am viewing this from a standpoint of "I can make something similar for way cheeper". If this mod were cheaper I would probably purchase one.

But going back to prices, they just don't add up to the amount you are charging. I don't see a machined piece of plastic (housing) being $20. I am familiar with the cost of the materials, and that seems on the high side.

I also understand that mass production also plays a part in costs of goods. Obviously PHreef does not mass produce these, and therefore the time it takes to manufacture one is increased. I am not sure how much time he puts into each one, or if it is automated or done by hand. Any one of these variables adds to the cost. Unless a more inexpensive method of manufacturing these can take place, they are going to exist in the realm of costing a lot of money, and in this case, too much for the benefit in my opinion.

I do hope that your mod is solid and successful, but it still is a little too expensive to be considered worthwhile in my book.

:fish1::hammer:

 

[Worldwithin]

And not to be picky, but I will add that if I purchased the complete MJ mod and MJ1200 seperatly from the mounting bracket, I would save money vs. purchasing them together. Sure, it is only 2 bucks, but that kinda implies that you are trying to squeeze those extra bucks out of people who aren't paying attention.

Not saying you are, it just looks a bit sketchy.

Generally, if things are purchased as a package, they tend to be a few bucks cheaper than if you purchased them individually, not the other way around.

:fish1::hammer:

 

[CLAMM]

materials are not the bulk of the expenses. Its that fact that in order to produce this stuff for us he isn't taking jobs from others...which means his pay has to be enough to make what he would if he had taken a contract from a company needing a part. He stands behind these and they look and perform the way we say. Data to come to prove this. That is were the majority of the cost is, in a professionals time.

I appreciate the feedback tough, once we publish the test results you might have a change of heart, and if not, no big deal. So you won't run one in your tank... others are very happy with the value of them. Im happy that you at least considered it. We will also consider your feedback.

We had a guy take out 2 tunze 6060's and replace with these he said he wished he would have been able to get these 1st and never would have had to spend the money on the tunzes.

Tunze makes a great product as well, but you pay for what you get. They are very expensive for a reason.

If you think the price is too high, thats fine. No one is getting rich from them. Alot of people, myself included dont have the machines to put something like this together, and im sure im like many of you, don't want an eye sore in my tank.

Im only going to say one futher thing about the pricing then we will let that go as not much can be done at this point.

If you buy an impeller retail and then pay shipping for it what does that cost you? Is it really that unreasonable? Then you modify it. At that point you have no warrenty so if it breaks...sorry about your luck. If im wrong and the factory will warranty a modified impeller, let me know! People are paying for something they put in their tank and they dont worry about. If it breaks we stand behind it. Does that have no value?

Im all for DIY and those that have the ability to do it. At least give us the benefit of the doubt that we are putting testing in and doing designs changes and comming out with new versions...there is cost involved there as well. To be perfectly honest some of it comes out of my pocket, and scotts, as well as Patricks because we think we can do things better. The test results should prove this...thats what we are working on...

Also working on live videos so the test results can be indepentanly verified.

Good Night ReefCentral.

If you have ideas on how to get the cost down...please pm me, scott, or patrick. There is alot more involved then meets the eye.

I hope through the testing of this product you will come to see its value. Maybe not, but I can hope

 

[CLAMM]

That I didn't catch. Most that buy them already have MJ's. This will be fixed Thanks for the heads up!

And not to be picky, but I will add that if I purchased the complete MJ mod and MJ1200 seperatly from the mounting bracket, I would save money vs. purchasing them together. Sure, it is only 2 bucks, but that kinda implies that you are trying to squeeze those extra bucks out of people who aren't paying attention.

Not saying you are, it just looks a bit sketchy.

Generally, if things are purchased as a package, they tend to be a few bucks cheaper than if you purchased them individually, not the other way around.

:fish1::hammer:

 

[Worldwithin]

materials are not the bulk of the expenses. Its that fact that in order to produce this stuff for us he isn't taking jobs from others...which means his pay has to be enough to make what he would if he had taken a contract from a company needing a part. He stands behind these and they look and perform the way we say. Data to come to prove this. That is were the majority of the cost is, in a professionals time.

I was attempting to allude to this in my post, but maybe no so clearly... I agree that time does constitute a portion of value to the pricing of an object. I was unaware that this was his focus at this moment in time, and thus, should be compensated for it as well. As I stated earlier, I am unaware of how much time he is spending on these. I know how much time it takes me to do one, and I would assume that it takes him less time given the tools available. They do look good from the pictures. It appears that he does quality work.

I appreciate the feedback tough, once we publish the test results you might have a change of heart, and if not, no big deal. So you won't run one in your tank... others are very happy with the value of them. Im happy that you at least considered it. We will also consider your feedback.

Test results would be nice... I tend to be a numbers person. Obviously, there is a cost vs. performance variable that needs to be satisfied. Performance includes output, (unknown at this time) power consumption (known and lower than competition), as well as looks (comparable to competition). If this mod actually out performs others in its price range, then by all means, you have yourself an excellent product, one which I would most likely purchase.

We had a guy take out 2 tunze 6060's and replace with these he said he wished he would have been able to get these 1st and never would have had to spend the money on the tunzes.

The advantage that Tunze's have that the MJs are unable to compete with is the electronic controls. I will admit that there is nothing that can be done regarding that, and thus makes it a difficult comparison. I have no doubts that if these mods can put out a similar, if not better flow, then your pricing is excellent.

Tunze makes a great product as well, but you pay for what you get. They are very expensive for a reason.

I agree

If you think the price is too high, thats fine. No one is getting rich from them. Alot of people, myself included dont have the machines to put something like this together, and im sure im like many of you, don't want an eye sore in my tank.

Not saying you are getting rich. It would be difficult to get rich off this single product.

Im only going to say one futher thing about the pricing then we will let that go as not much can be done at this point.
If you buy an impeller retail and then pay shipping for it what does that cost you? Is it really that unreasonable? Then you modify it. At that point you have no warrenty so if it breaks...sorry about your luck. If im wrong and the factory will warranty a modified impeller, let me know! People are paying for something they put in their tank and they dont worry about. If it breaks we stand behind it. Does that have no value?

I will put shipping aside due to the fact that you charge it as well. The cost for a replacment impeller for a MJ1200 is about $10. Depending on how long the impeller lasts would probably depend on if the place you purchased it from would replace it. Modifying it is a different story because obviously, few, if any, places would accept that back. Same goes for you. If I purchased one from you and modified it to add a second prop, chances are you would not accept it back if it broke.

Also, what warranty do you offer for the impeller?

Im all for DIY and those that have the ability to do it. At least give us the benefit of the doubt that we are putting testing in and doing designs changes and comming out with new versions...there is cost involved there as well. To be perfectly honest some of it comes out of my pocket, and scotts, as well as Patricks because we think we can do things better. The test results should prove this...thats what we are working on...

Testing and designing do count for something, don't get me wrong.

Also working on live videos so the test results can be indepentanly verified.

Good Night ReefCentral.

If you have ideas on how to get the cost down...please pm me, scott, or patrick. There is alot more involved then meets the eye.

I unfortunately do not, as I don't have the numbers you are working with (nor do I really want them :wildone: ). The only area that I would look into is where you get your materials from, and try to see if you can get a bulk rate on them or something. As for the labor, the only thing that I can think of is to see what kind of automation can be done on this so more parts are produced in less time. Since that is out of my reach, there is nothing that I can really suggest for that. Lastly, take a look at your shipping. If there is a way that you can make bulk shippments of these to you rather than individual shippments, that could reduce their cost as well. Since I am unsure of how you ship these things back and forth, this may or may not have already been looked at by you.

I hope through the testing of this product you will come to see its value. Maybe not, but I can hope

Based on looks alone, this product has value to me. Having someone stand behind their work does as well. When the numbers are in and if the performance is superb, then you have definate value. The issue at hand at this current moment is there are no real numbers. Given the overall belief of "I can do this for much cheaper", that is what is causing the price shock. I am sure that my quality standards are not as high as what you require for this... Heck, I have already had one break on me due to poor design on my part. I totally understand testing and quality controls.

I would love to see the performance numbers, as well as how you arrived at them. If indeed they are in a range that I find appealing, I would definately consider one of them.

:fish1::hammer:

 

[Worldwithin]

Sorry to hijack the thread...

back to the mods!!!

:fish1::hammer:

 

[hawnsky]

actually the replacement impeller for a mj1200 at one of my lfs is 6 bucks his cost is only $2.50 plus shipping...but if he orders a certain amount ...shipping is free...seems to me that not enough research was done as to purchasing the raw materials before jumping in

 

[hawnsky]

oh and to the comment about Phreef turning down other business just to make these...uhmm he must be making a lot of money off of these or somethings just not right...my neighbor is also is a machine shop owner...consulted him on what it would cost to make this product...about 10-15 bucks and thats not a buddy price either

 

[dhnguyen]

Hmmm... I would have thought a machinist with a machine shop can and should be able to do these much faster and easier than a DIYer like myself can for example.

Everything I do is by hand whereas a (I am assuming) computer/electronically controlled milling machine can crank these babies out perfect and in no time at all.

Honestly I don't think that this is rocket science. The design is very simple unless you are actually making/manufacturing the propeller yourself as well. But then if you are then maybe you are trying to reinvent something that already existed. Why not use existing plastic propellers from other vendors and find a way to assemble them to your design? At least to cut down on costs and making the pricing a bit more realistic.

And as hawnsky already pointed out previously, I don't think due diligence was done in procuring the raw materials needed.

All said and done though, I think your mod is top notch and very professional looking.

 

[CLAMM]

Maybe as a favor, a one time. I seriously doubt that it can be made at the same quality for that price. How many impellers are tried to find the right ones, how do you eliminate them starting backwards, what pitch prop do you use. How can we lower the current. All this is stuff he/we look into.

and give us a comparison. We are going to post our test results, will you post yours for the 20.00 mod? Do you have any pictures of it?

oh and to the comment about Phreef turning down other business just to make these...uhmm he must be making a lot of money off of these or somethings just not right...my neighbor is also is a machine shop owner...consulted him on what it would cost to make this product...about 10-15 bucks and thats not a buddy price either

 

[CLAMM]

back to the mods though! as Worldwithin said. we will prove their value.

 

[CLAMM]

Worldwithin:

What do you currently get for flow? What are you using?

 

[PHreef]

I also apologize, I didn't mean to turn this great thread upside down

I'll quickly try to answer a few questions and then I'll step aside.

>What pumps, flow-wise, is this mod supposed to equate to?<
The 1200 version is estimated (testing to come) at around 2000 gph. Some think more. We shall see.

>PHreef, any chance you can enlighten us to the make and model impeller you use?<
If you read thru the original(to my knowledge) Maxijet mod thread by member thunt, I've posted every part that I use and my sources

>actually the replacement impeller for a mj1200 at one of my lfs is 6 bucks his cost is only $2.50 plus shipping<
He must buy them by the thousands then(which I doubt). Keep in mind I only make small batches of these. I might order 20 or 30 impellers at a time.

>my neighbor is also is a machine shop owner...consulted him on what it would cost to make this product...about 10-15 bucks and thats not a buddy price either<
hawnsky- what quantities was he quoting? That sounds like an off the cuff price of someone that doesn't under stand what's involved with testing and quality control. Noone handed me a blue print and told me to make these. It took a long time to come up with the mod I make now. And I don't turn down work for these. I do batches of mods inbetween jobs, but for the same rate. I'm a one man shop, no mass producing here.

>Hmmm... I would have thought a machinist with a machine shop can and should be able to do these much faster and easier than a DIYer like myself can for example.<
There is still much of this that cannot be automated and all of the assembly is done by hand. So maybe only slightly faster than DIY at this point.

Thanks everyone for the compliments on the look of my mod, I do appreciate that.

-Patrick

 

[Worldwithin]

Worldwithin:

What do you currently get for flow? What are you using?

I honestly have no idea as I have not measured it with anything. I could take it out and set it up for the bag flow test that was hinted at earlier and give an approxmation.

More to come on that one. I have a second mod in progress that I will finish first and test that one.

:fish1::hammer:

 

[watchdr]

As a business owner I have kept out of this debate so far.

The two mentalities are at war here. The end consumer that thinks everything should be free or at the very least a 10th of the current price, and the business owner that feeds his family from the profits of his business.

On the one hand the general public has been trained by the 'mart' stores that everything can be had for less. And if they aren't getting it for less then they are being taken advantage of.

This is not true. Some things can be sold for less but there are many circumstances that have to be taken into account and planned for to make this actually happen. There is a limit to how low the price can go.

If these factors cannot be taken advantage of the price is higher than it would be otherwise. I am sure if 10 thousand of these were made at a time there would be a lot more done to make the process automated. But automating production costs money to. If the production is not high enough automating can't be done because the expenses would be too high.

On the side of the business owner they are in business to make money and as long as they do that honestly there is nothing wrong with how much they make. If there is then it would also be wrong for everyone that has a job working for someone else to be getting paid.

I run into this in my business sometimes. People think I just wave a magic wand or something to fix a watch. I wish it was that easy, trust me. And how much I make per hour is up to me and is my right. If I want to work for the same wages that an employee gets working at any other job then I would be much better off with a job. Employees have much less at risk and very little stress compared to a business owner.

So although the price for the mod already made and packaged is more than everyone would like to see they have a right to charge whatever they feel they can get for it and make as much as they want/deserve.

There truely is no such thing as price gouging. That is a fiction in everyones minds.

Those that think they can do it better for less, do it. If you do try I think you will find you can't do much better and the money you are losing out on will mean a lot on your dinner table.

Everyone has a right to eat and provide for their family.

If you can make some for yourself for less and are happy with a less than professional product and don't care about a warranty then do so. There is no reason to cause ill will just because you don't agree with the price one place charges.

Competition is good. If you actually can make these mods for less and pass that savings on and still live nicely then do it. It will force the others to find ways to compete.

I have many competitors and we all charge different prices. For instance the guy a few blocks down the road charges a couple of dollars less for changing a battery than I do. He does many more changes than I do. But I still make more than he does and I don't have to work as hard.

So what is wrong with that. Am I lazy? Sure. Why should I work myself so much harder to make the same amount of money?

If you had a choice in your job where you could work more for the same pay or less for the same pay which would you do?

Not one of you would say work more. Unless you were joking.

Think about it. If it weren't for those of us that have the courage and fortitude to start and operate a business and if the business wasn't profitable no one would have a job. Without your job you would not have the money to be in this hobby.

If people completely understood business they would realize that if a business is handsomely profitable then the profits are shared with the employees. If there was less government involvement interfereing with business the profits would be higher and therefore employees would have more in their pockets.

One last thing and I will get off the box. Most DIY projects can be done for less than buying professionally made products. So what. If money is an object for you then DIY and do something about your money situation to improve it.

I don't know Patrick, Clamm or anyone associated with this debate. I have never even talked to them or emailed or any contact.

I just feel I needed to state the facts of our culture and maybe bring some insight into this debate.

Now you can all blast me. That will take some of the heat off Patrick.

 

[Worldwithin]

Watchdr, you make some valid points, but there is quite a bit that I feel you missed along the way. As to avoid bring out the debate wagon, I am going to leave it at that. I think that we have laid to rest the concept that their price is high, and that they put in more work and testing that we do. They make a quality looking product and charge a higher than expected price for it. If they succeed with it, good for them. If not, then maybe the price for it was the issue. There is competition... Other manufacturers.

Commercialism at its best.

:fish1::hammer:

 

[rburn99]

Okay Watchdr, I'll blast you!! hehe Just kidding.

I obviously am not speaking for others here. What you say about consumer's wanting (and even expecting) to pay less is for the most part true. Your points about business and cost and profits also are logical. I do disagree with your 'no such thing as price gouging' comment though. Disasters, human lives on the line, price for life sustaining neccessities rising 500%.. etc. That's where the term price gouging might be applied - but not here. But, that's not what I came here to talk about. LOL

I am not addressing the cost claims nor am I pretending to know the profit involved of any of these components. I have only seen pictures of this packaged mod but it does look very clean and well manufactured. I'll even assume that it performs quite well (assuming there would be people that would love to jump in here if they bought one that sucked or even just worked okay). But what I have noticed is that this mod came about because someone found a way to make a $20 pump perform like a $65-$80 pump for just a few dollars in parts and some diy skills. It just seems to me then that $100 defeats the whole reason for this product to be in existence in the first place. How sensible is it to pay $100 for a pump and some parts to help you modify that pump so it will put out 2000gph when you can buy a pump off the shelf for $80 that puts out 2600gph. (I understand actual gph amounts haven't been determined yet, but a little more - a little less wouldn't change my point). Ironically, the original mj mods at the beginning of this thread now address a financial shortcut around this mod package as well as the ready to go pumps.

To make an analogy, let's say I didn't want to pay Schwinn $250 to buy a retro StingRay bicycle for my son but I instead came up with a mod that would make a $50 bicyle look just like a StingRay. What would be the point of me packaging a kit that contained a bicycle and all the parts necessary to diy it into a StingRay replica and then charging $300 for it? Logic would dictate that my asking price be somewhere below $250. The further below $250 the more I could be assured for the most part that I would be getting sales from all but the most uninformed consumers. As my asking price approached that of the StingRay I would begin to see less sales as more and more customers feel the price difference outweighed the need to 'mod'. Right at $250 it would be a safe bet that I was now definitely getting a minority of sales. If I charged more for my mod than what people could buy the 'non-modded' version for I would now expect nothing more than sales from only the most uninformed customer.

As you point out, there is no law or obligation to meet a certain price. ... if you can get it, go for it! But there is no law against grumbling over a price either. LOL

(the above rant was the indirect result of a slow work day so Blame It On My Boss! )