DIY VorTech?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6255896#post6255896 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Herbert T. Kornfeld
Hey Sanjay...glad you have an opinion on this. Engineering student to Engineering Prof...I wanted to ask you...do you see an advantage to their design with the moving magnet on the outside? The EcoTech design has the motor on the outside, which includes a magnet which is spun by the motor, and then that spinning magnet is what goes through the glass.

It seems redundant to me...and one too many moving parts. Is it really easier that way...or couldnt you simply put your electromagnetic motor on the glass, and the impeller on the other side without the need for the spinning magnet on the outside of the tank...Im thinking less noise here as well?
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I dont think anyone hase ever seen the inards of these guys but that may be how they do it. I could see putting the EM winding on the outside with a n and s pointing toward the glass. Pulsing the EM at different rates would change the speed of the impellor.
Or just using different dcv to lower the speed.

Don
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6257059#post6257059 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Donw
I dont think anyone hase ever seen the inards of these guys but that may be how they do it. I could see putting the EM winding on the outside with a n and s pointing toward the glass. Pulsing the EM at different rates would change the speed of the impellor.
Or just using different dcv to lower the speed.

Don
Click to expand...
Just going by size, it's likely a brushed motor on the outside (why else would they need that ?2"?) Then like said magnetic connection through glass. Depending on the motor (and possibly gear reduction) it could be quiet, or a howler.

The brushless system could be done (I've been advised to rip open a floppy drive to look at it's motor) but then there are electronic controls - not a simple dc source/rheostat to control.

The brushless system seems simpler, in less moving parts, but more complex in additional electronic controls.

Depends on how you look at the world really, personally I like the brushed motor for simplicity (I also complain about my 93 exploders lack of a carb or a distributor - to give you a frame of reference) but the brushless design would be smaller and quieter... Which is a definite improvement.

Andy
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6257537#post6257537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AndyL
Just going by size, it's likely a brushed motor on the outside (why else would they need that ?2"?) Then like said magnetic connection through glass. Depending on the motor (and possibly gear reduction) it could be quiet, or a howler.

The brushless system could be done (I've been advised to rip open a floppy drive to look at it's motor) but then there are electronic controls - not a simple dc source/rheostat to control.

The brushless system seems simpler, in less moving parts, but more complex in additional electronic controls.

Depends on how you look at the world really, personally I like the brushed motor for simplicity (I also complain about my 93 exploders lack of a carb or a distributor - to give you a frame of reference) but the brushless design would be smaller and quieter... Which is a definite improvement.

Andy
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I highly doubt it is a brushed motor. I would assume if it does have a moving internal magnet its just a custom electromagnet set up like a power head. Why would you complain about an exploders lack of distributor and or carb?

Don
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6257786#post6257786 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Donw
I highly doubt it is a brushed motor. I would assume if it does have a moving internal magnet its just a custom electromagnet set up like a power head. Why would you complain about an exploders lack of distributor and or carb?

Don
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Suppose it could be ala powerhead, I tend to think more in "off the shelf" components more than custom designed/built. Why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to?

Because I can understand and follow how a distributor and carb work, I can visually see the processes involved. Once a computer starts controlling everything, I can't see that - can't follow its decision making process, thus its magic - thus its bad. :lol: Although I did warm up to electronic ignition systems, so much less headache than points. But i'll still take a distributor over a block of coils.

Andy
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6257855#post6257855 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AndyL
Suppose it could be ala powerhead, I tend to think more in "off the shelf" components more than custom designed/built. Why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to?

Andy
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What you need to keep in mind that these are no diy project. The inventors are students and professors. They recieved many many thousands of dollars in research grants and gifts. No need to use a modified power head.

Don
 
i just went to their site, looks like a great innovative product. i wonder it you could make something like that with just two really strong magnets.
 
There are students, professors, doctors of engineering here...no reason we cant DIY one....well, maybe those who dont understand electronics and computer controls shouldnt try it...lol...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6255896#post6255896 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Herbert T. Kornfeld
Hey Sanjay...glad you have an opinion on this. Engineering student to Engineering Prof...I wanted to ask you...do you see an advantage to their design with the moving magnet on the outside? The EcoTech design has the motor on the outside, which includes a magnet which is spun by the motor, and then that spinning magnet is what goes through the glass.

It seems redundant to me...and one too many moving parts. Is it really easier that way...or couldnt you simply put your electromagnetic motor on the glass, and the impeller on the other side without the need for the spinning magnet on the outside of the tank...Im thinking less noise here as well?
Click to expand...


What you are suggesting can be done... but you really have to question if it is going to be more efficient. And of course we can look at efficiency in many ways.. efficiency in the effort/money spent on design, efficiency in the money spent in manufacturing, operational efficiency of just the pump, etc. Any business has to look at all (and more) of the different efficiencies and balance them.

Cleary bulidng with off the shelf parts is efficient since the end results will cost less money and take less effort. What you are suggesting for one requires custom design of several components and all the tweaking necessary to make it work right. Custom design leads to higher manufacturing cost.

Plus, just looking at the operational efficiency I can see a lot of electrical energy being spent in creating a electric field that will drive the rotator through 3/4' of glass. By using the permanent magnets they are not wasting electrical energy to generate the magnetic field required for the coupling, and at the same time able to use a "off the shelf" motor. a motor that has been designed for efficient operation.

The pump is very quiet so noise is not an issue. I saw it operating at MACNA.

sanjay.
 
I just though of a way to DIY one of these which would be easier to build, but may not work as efficient as theirs.

Place a circular array of electro magnets on the outside and on the inside you have a propellor with either a permanent magnet or a piece of steel encased in silicone. To make it spin you would need a circuit similar to what you would use to drive a stepper motor.
 
Don't forget about keeping the two together while the power is off. I'm thinking a donut shaped magnet on either part. You could also use a series of rare earth magnets instead of a donut.

Also, if I remember correctly I was told at MACNA that it will only work through up to 1/2" glass, which tells you something about the limitations in their design.

I signed up for their Beta program but don't think I can afford the $450 price tag to "test out their product"

A very cool product to say the least.
 
Wow, $450 to test? That means the completed product will be well over $450. If this is the case, I guess I wont be getting one then.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6273024#post6273024 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pyrojon
Don't forget about keeping the two together while the power is off. I'm thinking a donut shaped magnet on either part. You could also use a series of rare earth magnets instead of a donut.

Also, if I remember correctly I was told at MACNA that it will only work through up to 1/2" glass, which tells you something about the limitations in their design.

I signed up for their Beta program but don't think I can afford the $450 price tag to "test out their product"

A very cool product to say the least.
Click to expand...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6275040#post6275040 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cduran02
Wow, $450 to test? That means the completed product will be well over $450. If this is the case, I guess I wont be getting one then.
Click to expand...

Its not $450. It is actually $250 for beta testing.

sanjay.
 
Oh sorry, I guess my memory failed me.

First time I ever heard of a company that wanted you to pay to do the work of testing a product for them, and it's a bit much for me to pay for a power head.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6273024#post6273024 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pyrojon
Also, if I remember correctly I was told at MACNA that it will only work through up to 1/2" glass, which tells you something about the limitations in their design.
Click to expand...
It works at a 3/4" gap at all times, not 1/2". If you have a tank with glass that is thinner than 3/4", they provide spacers to keep the magnets at that seperation.
 
anymore news on this?

I don't doubt that it would be cost-prohibitive to build one that is the same size and electrical effiency as the original; however, I have no need for 3000+GPH, I only have a 65- so buying one of these is definately over-kill (even if it can be turned down to a few hundred GPH) no to mention the price tag is, well - I don't want to drag this thread down that road..... :P

So far I've hooked up a 3" dc fan w/ a few 3/8" rare-earth magnets to a variable voltage supply - created a 2" PVC adaptor with a prop (A'la maxi-jet mod). I've got it spinning, just working out a few kinks (and waiting for a better propeller to be delivered)

This is about $40 worth of "stuff": AC/variable DC adaptor $8; a few rare-earth magnets ($16 for 10); propeller $4, plastic airline tubing, PVC parts, glue - $10 - and the 3" fan was out of an old computer power supply (easily exchangable with the cd-rom brushless motors mentioned above)

A simple relay between two of those brushless motor controllers mentioned above would create a pretty good surge effect too- guess that would be like an extra $100 for parts though.... :(

This is obviously a very, very rough device - I am definately looking for suggestions for improvement - especially on a better way to mount the magnets to the rotating axel on the inside (might need a few teflon washers). Right now I just have an extra piece of acrylic holding the interior magnets, but it would provide more torque if the magnets could be closer to the glass - I've got to play around by moving the axel support pieces a bit and see what I come up with.
 
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