Do I give up now; is refugium the only answer?

[Sanlynn]

Hi all,
I am at my wits' end, last straw, puzzled beyond belief, almost ready to throw in the towel.

My tank was established in September 2004. I have been having high nitrates (greater than 100 ppm) AND phosphates (off the color scale) for months now...so though my LFS who set up the tank didn't recommend it, I went and got a high quality RO/DI unit, hoping it would make a difference...the RO/DI water tests at 0 particles and it's been used exclusively since August '05 and NO change in nitrates/phosphates.

At the same time I cut back feeding, and for the month of December did WEEKLY -instead of the biweekly I had been doing - water changes of about 20% each (I have a 150 gal tank and use a pail about 30 gallons full.) NO change.

The fish for the most part are doing okay (not great, and I did lose all four gobies I had and both my Chevron tang and Clown tang have lateral line disease). The few corals I have left are not doing well- a beautiful torch is now nearly gone and a red brain is receding. Some hairy mushroom, polyps and the awful aptasia are thriving. NOTHING kills the aptasia - I've used Joe's juice, calcium, and Stop Aptasia and they still happily multiply all over the tank.

I run an ETTS skimmer which produces voluminous quantities of froth. Below I'll list my tank inhabitants and other specs.

As far as I can see my present choices are slim:
1. Take out some of the fish (my kids have named each of them and I can't really do that without major trauma)
2. Give up on corals and keep fish only (I love the potential variety of corals so I would hate to do that)
3. Put in a refugium (I have a service once a month and this is what he recommends, but it's costly at about $700 - $1,000 and I don't feel competent to do it myself).
4. Just give up on it and call it a day (right now each time I look at the tank it makes me sad instead of the wonder and joy I felt long ago when it was running okay).

If y'all think a refugium is the answer to saving the tank and being able to incorporate corals again, I think I can bite the bullet within the next six months (after holiday bills are paid off).

Any other ideas? Is the refugium the answer? I really can't even keep up with weekly water changes - it's just not practical for my lifestyle - especially when it makes no difference in water quality.

My other concern is water movement - could that be an issue? I just have the two water returns and a small water pump in the center. My service guy suggests to do the water movement right, we should totally deconstruct the tank (it's about 3/4 full of Tonga rock).

Anyway, sorry if this is long and whiny, I'm just really discouraged.
I'll appreciate any suggestions.

Here's the set-up:
150 g. saltwater reef tank
livestock:
1 sweetlips (about 8" long, it's grown at least 3" since bought)
1 threadfin snapper (about 4" - 5" long)
1 plump clown tang with mild lld(about 4" - 5" long_
1 healthy lemon tang
1 healthy blue powder tang
1 Chevron tang w/serious lld, but has had it a long time and continues to eat and seems okay otherwise.
3 chromis damsels (each about 3" long - were 5 of them, but they self-selected)
1 maroon clown
variety of snails and crabs
small frogspawn
two - three hairy mushrooms
two - three red mushrooms
dying torch
dying red brain
orange polyps
tube anemonie, doing okay, but not as good as last month
a few featherdusters
LOTS of aptasia

Hardware:
power compact light 96w dual actinic and 10,000K with moonlights
Deluxe Reef Devil ETTS skimmer
40 W UV sterilizer

salt used: Oceanic
Additive used: EcoSystem Reef Solution
Also baking soda used to boost alkalinity

I have a long list of lost corals and other livestock, but that's just depressing so I'll let that go.

Thanks to anyone for reading this long missive. I'll appreciate any suggestions.
Sandy Lynn

 

[sean48183]

I would most definately add a fuge. That price for that fuge is outrageous and an absolute insult. I added mine for a little bit of work and about a $100. If you already have a sump could be even easier. Do you have a sump?

 

[Electrobes]

hmm.. okay where to begin? Overall your system doesn't seem out of the ordinary in terms of potential problems. One thing I always suggest to people is to have a grounder in the tank. It's easily available a LFS and is a good thing to have even if you don't think you have loose electricity running in the tank. I have noticed that fish with loose elec. in the tank develope lateral line. Just a suggestion.. might be the source of the problem.

I won't bother with the whole salt discussion. I do want to know if you have been using Oceanic from the start. I started with Oceanic and was one of the unlucky ones with a bad batch or something of the sort that caused my massive cyano/diatoms. I switched to I.O. and it all disappeared.

What flow rate do you have the UV sterilizer at and how old is the bulb? I am usually told to have the UV bulb changed anywhere from 6 months to one year. I don't use one, but I definitely am not against them, I think it is a nice addition to a reef if, of course, used correctly. Too slow of flow over purifies the water IMO, maybe the tank is a bit too sterile causing the fish stress? As you already know the sterilizer won't do anything for your nitrate problem.

I am guessing you have a sump? When you do a water change try doing a couple of things, unless you are doing them already, it might help: Vacuum the sump floor to help get rid of decaying things on there. It is often missed for people who don't use refugiums, and doesn't check down there (I am one of those people). It takes about two seconds and is easy to do. Also right before you do vacuum the old water out of the aquarium, try taking a turkey baster and blasting rocks to blow out detritus from within. Maybe there is too little flow in the tank and the detritus is decaying in large numbers, since it cannot reach the overflow and therefore your skimmer? I cannot stress how much imporved water flow helps out a tank and it's inhabitants, I learned the hard way.

I wouldn't suggest the use of any additives right now with these problems you are having. For now I would check on the importants like Ammonia, Nitrates, etc, but not worry all THAT much about calcium and Magnesium. pH and Alk is crucial for right now.

Carbon is a great water polisher and temporary filter to help suck out the funk from your tank. I use a powerfilter on my much smaller tank (in comparison to yours) and it does wonders for any tank.

As for the aptasia, that is a problem. Not only does it look ugly but it does anger and irritate (stress being the better word here) fish and obviously corals as well. You may need to do the dirty job of removing them manually be with with some chemical (kalk, Joe's Juice, etc) or with a brush. You may even try a biological attack with peppermint shrimps, or even a copperband butterfly. The only problem with both of those is that the shrimps will prob get eaten by the sweetlips, and the copperbands are hard to get eating at first. If you're lucky it will be hungry enough to much on the aptasia, you may want to talk to Marc (Melev) or Richard Durso about their recent encounters with the Copperband Butterfly fish.

Hope this helps... hang in there!

 

[Electrobes]

Ha I completely forgot to talk about a refugium! I very much believe that a refugium would be a great addition to your tank. Though I used to have one and now do not, I think not only does your current situation warrants you one, but your much mroe active fish and tank size would appreciate a refugium. It is a bit more work and I don't want to lead you into thinking that this is a straight away solution. I am worried that your tank may have much more deeper, but simple and easily fixable, problems that is causing your sadness.

If you have phosphate problems I do encourage the use of a Phosban Reactor". If you want to speak to anyone about this issue, or simply read some about it, I can not suggest a better source than Marc's (Melev) thread about his tank, or the man himself. He struggled in the past with higher phosphates and has invaluable experience with it and the methods to getting it lowered or totally rid of it.

 

[Mrs.kbmdale]

you definitely NEED to, at this point, get a fuge/sump with a dsb, and macro. Macro (cheatomorpha) really should/is a MUST, this will radically reduce nitrates. AND, although I hate to say it cuse I too have kids attached to fishies, but you really need to get rid of some of them. I am not a tang police, don't even own one, but to me, 4 tangs in a 150, as well as 6 other fish is pushing it quite a bit.
My tank is just now 1 yr old, and in the process of an upgrade, we have NEVER done weekly waterchanges. In the beginning we did 10%-20% biweekly water changes, but like you, its just not conceivable with our lifestyle and amount of kids(4) to do them weekly, so we do 25% monthly, sometimes bimonthly. And our tank is kicking butt right now.

JMO,
Brianna:rollface:

 

[ReefNeck]

Even if you can't build a refugium yourself you can buy a super nice one for under $200 online!

My God, If I can get $700-$1000 for installing a refugium I am going to start my own business!

 

[Sanlynn]

Many thanks for your quick and well-thought out replies. To answer some questions that came up:
I do have a sump, but it is positioned in the stand in a way that it cannot be dismantled and I'm told trying to retrofit it in place would be unwise, time consuming and costly. My service guy is suggesting building a 65-gal refugium that would sit beside the 150 g tank and be plumbed in. I've been told by others that this quote is extravagant, but I don't know of any alternatives since I can't do the work myself. Any other suggestions about getting a refugium at a better price? (We're in Northern Westchester)

I have when I have done water changes cleaned out the sump, which does collect all kinds of detritus. Also in the sump is a "stocking" of Black Diamond activated carbon. I have in the past used Rowaphos, but not noticed a change in phosphates.
I will certainly look into Melev's thread to learn more about this.

As far as water flow past the UV -- how do I find out? The bulb, I'm sure is past prime and should be changed next chance I get to a LFS to pick up one. Which reminds me of another smaller problem - my actinic bulbs have been blowing out MUCH sooner than they should - the last two lasted only about two and three months each...that gets expensive.

Lastly, does anyone have experience with growing mangroves right in your sump? Do they interfere with the equipment there such as pump, skimmer and heater? Can they be effective in handling nitrate/phosphate problems?

Thanks again!
Sandy Lynn

p.s. Brianna - a monthly water change is my dream! What do you mean by upgrade?

 

[Stile2]

The fuge is pretty much a must!!

The marco (cheato) eats up the nitrates like nobodies business.

I also agree with getting rid of at least a couple of fish.

Fuge's, if you already have a sump, are a breeze to set up, for as little as $50 for a small one, $100 for a pretty huge one.

Keith

 

[Heinz]

a better skimmer, something like ASM G4+, cleaned twice a week,

more flow, SEIO or Tunze,

clean your system free of detritus on a daily basis,

after you have done that, start with a few 50% Water changes, (make sure temp/salinity match your tank),
untill your water parameters are in line,

thats it,

 

[Mrs.kbmdale]

by upgrade I mean that currently my setup is a 30g main tank with a seperate 10g sump and seperate 10g refugium, which we are in the process of switching over to a 75g main tank with a 5g seperate fuge and 20g seperate sump. (by seperate I do mean that they are all plumbed together, just seperate containers)When we move everything over to the 75 we MIGHT change the sump/fuge to the 30g, this has not been decided yet, though

Here is a link to the thread my husband started in the diy forum if you're interested in taking a look:http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=739420 He has done everything himself, except for the construction of the actual tanks.
I would also do some digging around in the DIY forum, or start a thread over there on how exactly to go about adding a fuge yourself, because 700-1000 that you were told for one is just ABSOLUTELY FREAKING INSANE!!! Even just a 10g with some cheatomorpha in it will help out with those nitrates beyond belief

HTH,
Brianna:rollface:

 

[Stile2]

Do you have room above your sump to add a small 10 gallon or even 5 gallon tank, $12 each. (By above, what I mean is that the fuge could sit on top of one end of your sump) You can use that as a fuge. Just T off the drain so that part goes into the fuge (with the rest drain to the sump) and then overflows into the sump. You would have to get the small tank drilled, but that should only cost $15 at your local glass store. Then it is just $5 worth of pvc fittings.

Did I read correctly that you only have 96 watts of pc lighting on a 150 gallon tank? If so, that is probably a big reason why corals aren't doing well.

 

[Sanlynn]

Thanks, again for all of your replies. The reason my service guy is talking big $$ is that he is suggesting EcoSystem with the Mud. Looking at Marine Depot's latest catalogue, I see their refugium's are VERY pricey - a system that would actually be too small for my size tank is running >$700 before installation!!!

Going on the Ecosystem site, however, I see they have a sort of add-on refugium that sits on top of your sump and supplements the existing filtration. For a 200-gallon tank, I found a vendor - customaquatics.com - that sells it for $400 (on sale from $484). It includes the acrylic box (36" x 8" x *8"), 20 lb. of Mud, lights and "necessary" plumbing. I'm not sure whether it would fit in my stand on top of the sump (and still be able to be serviced) or whether I would have to put it on its own stand next to the tank. I think my husband and I might try plumbing it if we could do it over the sump, but we don't feel confident if we have to plumb it on a stand beside the tank (if it leaks it wouldn't run into the sump )

Has anyone had experience with the Ecosystem mud? Is it worth it? On their web site (ecosystemaquarim.com) they make it sound like miracle mud, and I could sure use a miracle!

Even if I go with less expensive parts for a build-it-yourself refugium, my service guy wants $60/hour to do the plumbing and is estimating 5 hours to complete a side-by-side setup.

By the way, now that my torch has nearly completely receded, I think it may be aptasia that killed it and not the nitrates as I see lots of those little suckers in between the "fingers" that weren't visible before it receded.

Sandy Lynn

 

[Amphiprionocellaris]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6446710#post6446710 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Electrobes
One thing I always suggest to people is to have a grounder in the tank. It's easily available a LFS and is a good thing to have even if you don't think you have loose electricity running in the tank. I have noticed that fish with loose elec. in the tank develope lateral line. Just a suggestion.. might be the source of the problem.

Grounding probes are good, but not for that reason. Grounding probes exist to protect the aquarist from getting shocked. They will not have an effect on your livestock. Without the aquarist completing the circuit (ie hands in tank and feet on ground) there is no "stray voltage." Don't get me wrong; safety is a prime concern and so grounding probes are very important, but they will not improve your livestock in some of the countless ways that have been stated on RC.

 

[clsanchez77]

Hey guys, I dont stand on much experience but over in Anthony Calfo's old stomping grounds, there is a post (still live) about using a 5 gallon bucket or a large food grade storage container with a very deep sandbed (about a foot or so).

The idea is the sandbed is so deep that it has high nitrate rudcution capacity (NO3 --> N2 is reduction right?) and if setup properly, the water depth above the sandbed will be shallow and high flow so detrus will not accumulate.

Check out the thread here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109

It is a cheap option (a quarter of the cost of a refug) and you can do this yourself. If nothing else it ough to be worth the expirement.

 

[VDHD1]

I say if you have to get a fuge to fix a problem, then you have a problem. You shouldn't get the fuge to fix this issue, because you'll have more issues. First find out what the problem is, remove some fish, and you should go from there.

As far as Aptasia goes, I've had a similar issue - the best way to kill them is to leave the lights out for a few months - but then all your coral dies.

 

[mattls]

A refugium is a must with chaeto. With that bioload you will have chaeto groing like masd but you will see your nitrates drop drastically.

The fish load is very large . Actually out of control. You have a sweetlips, snapper, 4 tangs, 1 clown fish . These fish are all extememly big eaters and produce a lot of waste depending on there feeding habits. Did your service advise you or tell you not to put all those fish in tank. They all get very large. If they didn;t your first problem is your service(the more he has to service the better for him).

I think you can also use more flow .

Honestly and this is just my opinion in this hobby if you need a service to take care of tank it might be a better idea to not start in this hobby.

 

[john rochon]

okay, heres something. you say you have a service guy and a crappy looking tank. easy. fire the service guy!!!!! adding a fuge is way to easy. just buy another tank around 40 to 90g and plumb it into your system. add light,sandbed and cheato. there ya go. also as mentioned your fish bioload is fairly high and the overfeeding is probally whats killing ya plus you started off with tapwater [I believe?] so maybe your rockwork and sandbed have absorbed alot of ''pollutents'' from your initial setup.

 

[reg828]

I believe theres other way you can fix the problem than just adding a fuge. imho, some people like fuge, it works for them but some doesnt work. because a fuge needs a lot of maintenance as well. theres other way you can reduce nitrates or phosphate by adding a good skimmer, tunze or sieo for good circulation. before, i had 55 gallon with only two powerheads, i saw lots of algae, but when i added two more powerheads and clean the aquarium once a week. algae grew very very slow and i added kent marine phosphate sponge to my wet and dry filter. all those things help a lot to fight off algae and aquarium problems.

 

[thehedge]

I guess a simple question, but have you tested your perameters on more than 1 test kit? Just to rule out a faulty test kit.

 

[ssgatbliss]

Originally I had purchased an ECOSYSTEM 40 hang on fuge. The cost was just under $300 with shipping. It was small, basically useless. Sent it back.

For about the same money I got an AMIRACLE mud fuge with a MAG 5, 20 pounds of Kents Substrate, 4 Mangroves, and a bunch of cheato from the LFS. If I had ordered it online I could have saved myself about $150. If I had built the fuge myself my only real cost would have been the MAG 5 pump, Kents substrate, and the macro algae.

IMO I would stay away from the ECOSYSTEM stuff. It's over priced and the miracle mud is pretty much crushed quartz (saw that on another site). Matter of fact next time I wouldn't waste the money on the Kents either as it is super fine and I have to keep BIO balls or a sponge of some type at the inlet or the water flow makes the fine substrate cloud the tank. I think live sand would have been just fine.

End result is nitrates dropped to nothing.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6467460#post6467460 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sanlynn
Thanks, again for all of your replies. The reason my service guy is talking big $$ is that he is suggesting EcoSystem with the Mud. Looking at Marine Depot's latest catalogue, I see their refugium's are VERY pricey - a system that would actually be too small for my size tank is running >$700 before installation!!!

Going on the Ecosystem site, however, I see they have a sort of add-on refugium that sits on top of your sump and supplements the existing filtration. For a 200-gallon tank, I found a vendor - customaquatics.com - that sells it for $400 (on sale from $484). It includes the acrylic box (36" x 8" x *8"), 20 lb. of Mud, lights and "necessary" plumbing. I'm not sure whether it would fit in my stand on top of the sump (and still be able to be serviced) or whether I would have to put it on its own stand next to the tank. I think my husband and I might try plumbing it if we could do it over the sump, but we don't feel confident if we have to plumb it on a stand beside the tank (if it leaks it wouldn't run into the sump )

Has anyone had experience with the Ecosystem mud? Is it worth it? On their web site (ecosystemaquarim.com) they make it sound like miracle mud, and I could sure use a miracle!

Even if I go with less expensive parts for a build-it-yourself refugium, my service guy wants $60/hour to do the plumbing and is estimating 5 hours to complete a side-by-side setup.

By the way, now that my torch has nearly completely receded, I think it may be aptasia that killed it and not the nitrates as I see lots of those little suckers in between the "fingers" that weren't visible before it receded.

Sandy Lynn