Do I give up now; is refugium the only answer?
- Thread starter Sanlynn
- Start date
aiannar974
New member
I have been wanting to try the DSB in a 5 gal bucket. Great thread attached. Real cheap and might work.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=339
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=339
wrassie86
Premium Member
I second on who ever said fireing the service guy.By the sound of it what has he done for ya?except maybe screw up your tank.
The last 20g refuge i set up as a free standing beside the main costed about $200.00 that included a nice stand and tank, plumbing.
Do you belong to a local reef club?i'd be willing bet there is somebody that would happy to set one up for ya.And maybe get the tank back in order for little charge.Heck i'd do it if we were closer.Try posting in your local forum.
I would recomend phosban in a reactor and the use of AZN03 but i'm not sure your skimmer is good enough for the AZ.But alot of water changes, basting the rocks and skimming wet will help.
Vodka is another method that would work,but once again there is the skimmer issue.
The last 20g refuge i set up as a free standing beside the main costed about $200.00 that included a nice stand and tank, plumbing.
Do you belong to a local reef club?i'd be willing bet there is somebody that would happy to set one up for ya.And maybe get the tank back in order for little charge.Heck i'd do it if we were closer.Try posting in your local forum.
I would recomend phosban in a reactor and the use of AZN03 but i'm not sure your skimmer is good enough for the AZ.But alot of water changes, basting the rocks and skimming wet will help.
Vodka is another method that would work,but once again there is the skimmer issue.
PuffersKick
New member
I can help you with your aiptasia.
1) You must remove your Sweetlips and your Threadfin snapper first. This would also help reduce your bioload since these fish will get HUGE.
2) Add about 5-6 good sized PEPPERMINT SHRIMP.
You do that and I GUARANTEE your aiptasia will be GONE within a couple weeks. All that Joe's Juice and other junk is a waste of time and money b/c you will never be able to get them all and they just grow back.
But you have to get rid of those 2 fish first or they will eat the peppermints. That also opens the door for you to get other shimp (like cleaner for blood) and inverts.
1) You must remove your Sweetlips and your Threadfin snapper first. This would also help reduce your bioload since these fish will get HUGE.
2) Add about 5-6 good sized PEPPERMINT SHRIMP.
You do that and I GUARANTEE your aiptasia will be GONE within a couple weeks. All that Joe's Juice and other junk is a waste of time and money b/c you will never be able to get them all and they just grow back.
But you have to get rid of those 2 fish first or they will eat the peppermints. That also opens the door for you to get other shimp (like cleaner for blood) and inverts.
I'm using the Ecosystem method, though I didn't pay nearly what you are. I made my own fuge instead. I took a 50 gallon tank, a sheet of heavy acrylic (Dummy Depot sells it), a tube of aquarium sealant and went to work. Heck, I even bought a $25 jigsaw to cut the acrylic and still saved several hundred. Here is a photo I took a few weeks ago. The culerpa is all but dead now. I have never had any measurable nitrates, and I think that is why it's dying.
I would not recommend that you just switch over to this system. There are many people that are running the same equipment that you are and are very successful. I think if you added a small fuge and some macro algae, your nitrate problems would quickly diminish. Best of luck.
I would not recommend that you just switch over to this system. There are many people that are running the same equipment that you are and are very successful. I think if you added a small fuge and some macro algae, your nitrate problems would quickly diminish. Best of luck.
DT's_Reef
New member
Lol, yes, if your tank is being serviced....try someone else!
Get rid of those two honking fish. That should help the nitrate problem in some way.
I have a smaller Imperator angel in my 120 SPS system and he's by far the largest fish, and then have several tiny fish....no measurable nitrate. I feed daily, but not heavily.
If you don't have a sandbed in your main reef, then sure, try a refugium. They're certainly nice to have, but by no means are necessary in order to have a spectacular looking system.
Get rid of those two honking fish. That should help the nitrate problem in some way.
I have a smaller Imperator angel in my 120 SPS system and he's by far the largest fish, and then have several tiny fish....no measurable nitrate. I feed daily, but not heavily.
If you don't have a sandbed in your main reef, then sure, try a refugium. They're certainly nice to have, but by no means are necessary in order to have a spectacular looking system.
melev
Well-known member
Hi Sandy,
Look, you can fix this, one way or another.
There are a number of issues though. What is causing the nitrates in the first place? Is there anything in your system that uses Bioballs, Biowheels, Bio-anything? Do you have sponges in the overflows, or pads in the sump? If the answer is yes, these must be removed.
To lower nitrates, you must change vast amounts of water. Quickly. If your tank is 100g and the Nitrates test 100, you'll need to do a 50g water change which will make the nitrates 50ppm. Do another 50g water change, and you'll get them down to 25ppm. So 100g later, you've reduced the problem significantly.
Your LR must be blown off thoroughly to remove detritus. Overfeeding could be part of the problem. A lack of circulation could be another part. How often do you clean the skimmer's collection cup and riser tube? At this point, do it daily. Yes, all this is extra work, but you'll bring your tank back from this situation to a happy tank full of healthy livestock.
Another thing you can do to remove Nitrate is to purchase Algone (www.algone.com), which is a product you toss in the sump for 14 days at a time. It absorbs nitrates. Each 'pillow' is rated for 200g, and a box has 6 or 8 pillows. It doesn't work fast, but it will work around the clock when you aren't doing water changes or cleaning that skimmer.
You mentioned HLLE for a couple of tangs. They can be healed in a quarantine tank. Yes, more work. You've going to have to really invest some time in your tank for the next 4 weeks or so, but all of this hard work will pay off, I promise.
You can run fresh carbon in a canister filter to help pull nasty stuff from the water. You can run phosphate remover in a Phosban Reactor if the PO4 levels are high in your tank - which they probably are based on your initial post. You'll need to test the water for phosphate of course.
A refugium will assist your system, but you need your tank set up correctly in the first place if you want it to make a difference. The refugium should be sized to be 10% (or larger) of your display tank. My 280g reef has a 29g refugium.
Feel free to reply with your thoughts, and I'll try to help you get this resolved.
Btw, since you have a service guy, he can do these water changes which will save your back.
Look, you can fix this, one way or another.
There are a number of issues though. What is causing the nitrates in the first place? Is there anything in your system that uses Bioballs, Biowheels, Bio-anything? Do you have sponges in the overflows, or pads in the sump? If the answer is yes, these must be removed.
To lower nitrates, you must change vast amounts of water. Quickly. If your tank is 100g and the Nitrates test 100, you'll need to do a 50g water change which will make the nitrates 50ppm. Do another 50g water change, and you'll get them down to 25ppm. So 100g later, you've reduced the problem significantly.
Your LR must be blown off thoroughly to remove detritus. Overfeeding could be part of the problem. A lack of circulation could be another part. How often do you clean the skimmer's collection cup and riser tube? At this point, do it daily. Yes, all this is extra work, but you'll bring your tank back from this situation to a happy tank full of healthy livestock.
Another thing you can do to remove Nitrate is to purchase Algone (www.algone.com), which is a product you toss in the sump for 14 days at a time. It absorbs nitrates. Each 'pillow' is rated for 200g, and a box has 6 or 8 pillows. It doesn't work fast, but it will work around the clock when you aren't doing water changes or cleaning that skimmer.
You mentioned HLLE for a couple of tangs. They can be healed in a quarantine tank. Yes, more work. You've going to have to really invest some time in your tank for the next 4 weeks or so, but all of this hard work will pay off, I promise.
You can run fresh carbon in a canister filter to help pull nasty stuff from the water. You can run phosphate remover in a Phosban Reactor if the PO4 levels are high in your tank - which they probably are based on your initial post. You'll need to test the water for phosphate of course.
A refugium will assist your system, but you need your tank set up correctly in the first place if you want it to make a difference. The refugium should be sized to be 10% (or larger) of your display tank. My 280g reef has a 29g refugium.
Feel free to reply with your thoughts, and I'll try to help you get this resolved.
Btw, since you have a service guy, he can do these water changes which will save your back.
You definately need to get rid of some of those fish.
In addition to the other recomendations that folks have suggested above (increased flow, water changes, work on skimmer, DSB, etc.) a refugium with growing macroalgae will definately be a big help. As a quick fix, you can even get one started right in the tank really quick. Just look for plastic basket or similar container with porous sides and hang it right in the tank with the rim above water level (to keep your herbivorous fish out). Put some chaetomorpha or caulerpa in there and with all of those nitrates it will grow like crazy and help to remove some of those pollutants.
I don't know exactly how you have your system set up, but if you have more room in the space where the tank is you could even consider having the seaweed dedicated refugium as another display tank. A tank stuffed with bright green foliage can be very pretty. You can inquire on the Marine Plants and Macroalgae forum for advice. 700-1000$ is fantastically expensive for a simple refugium and a total ripoff. You can build one with a cheap glass tank, some halfway decent lights, a few pieces of plumbing and not much else.
If you use a DSB make sure to look up some of the discussions on RC--sand beds need to be carefully managed or they can create problems over time.
I didn't catch it above. Did your tank service company stock your system? I think you might want to consider getting another service. Or better yet, keep researching and learn to get things running more smoothly and to a point where you can manage the tank yourself. You will learn more, it will be more gratifying and you will do a better job than than they will.
In addition to the other recomendations that folks have suggested above (increased flow, water changes, work on skimmer, DSB, etc.) a refugium with growing macroalgae will definately be a big help. As a quick fix, you can even get one started right in the tank really quick. Just look for plastic basket or similar container with porous sides and hang it right in the tank with the rim above water level (to keep your herbivorous fish out). Put some chaetomorpha or caulerpa in there and with all of those nitrates it will grow like crazy and help to remove some of those pollutants.
I don't know exactly how you have your system set up, but if you have more room in the space where the tank is you could even consider having the seaweed dedicated refugium as another display tank. A tank stuffed with bright green foliage can be very pretty. You can inquire on the Marine Plants and Macroalgae forum for advice. 700-1000$ is fantastically expensive for a simple refugium and a total ripoff. You can build one with a cheap glass tank, some halfway decent lights, a few pieces of plumbing and not much else.
If you use a DSB make sure to look up some of the discussions on RC--sand beds need to be carefully managed or they can create problems over time.
I didn't catch it above. Did your tank service company stock your system? I think you might want to consider getting another service. Or better yet, keep researching and learn to get things running more smoothly and to a point where you can manage the tank yourself. You will learn more, it will be more gratifying and you will do a better job than than they will.
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Sanlynn
Premium Member
First of all, I want to tell you how much I appreciate the time and effort y'all spent in your replies to me.
I was about to begin to apply some of the remedies recommended (50% water change, blowing detritus off rocks more thoroughly than I have been doing, etc.) but I have to admit I was so attached to my fish (they each had their very individual personalities) that getting rid of any of them seemed too extreme to me. In fact, I was beginning to think I could be happy with a fish only tank - or fish mostly tank, anyway.
Well, I guess life takes funny turns. We lost power. It's happened before and we remembered distinctly that our LFS - who set up the tank and recommended and sold us each and every fish and coral we had - had assured us that the tank could be fine for at LEAST 24 hours without any power...so I went to bed resolved to put in the two puny airstones I have on battery power the next morning if the power hadn't come back. But by 9 hours after power went out I woke up to a tank full of dead fish. All that survived are a maroon clown (my least favorite fish) and two watchman gobies that I actually thought had died a long time ago since I hadn't seen them for months! A day later with power still out, and the tank down to about 45 - 50 degrees, these three managed to hang in. The few corals I have seem okay too, though the polyps are still not fully opened. The aiptasia, however, are flourishing - some of them are massive...
I'm feeling incredibly sad about my fish and kicking myself, of course, for not throwing in the airstones right away in case that would have saved them. I'm not sure what, if anything people do about temperature when the power goes out...the gobies were so listless that I actually thought they had died too and almost removed them from the tank but just didn't have the stomach for it. Now that power has been restored for about 48 hours, they're lively again.
I think I'm going to want to rebuild the tank and will post again in a new thread asking for your excellent advice in how to do this intelligently so as to avoid the problems I was facing with bioload and nitrates.
Again, many thanks.
Sandy Lynn
I was about to begin to apply some of the remedies recommended (50% water change, blowing detritus off rocks more thoroughly than I have been doing, etc.) but I have to admit I was so attached to my fish (they each had their very individual personalities) that getting rid of any of them seemed too extreme to me. In fact, I was beginning to think I could be happy with a fish only tank - or fish mostly tank, anyway.
Well, I guess life takes funny turns. We lost power. It's happened before and we remembered distinctly that our LFS - who set up the tank and recommended and sold us each and every fish and coral we had - had assured us that the tank could be fine for at LEAST 24 hours without any power...so I went to bed resolved to put in the two puny airstones I have on battery power the next morning if the power hadn't come back. But by 9 hours after power went out I woke up to a tank full of dead fish. All that survived are a maroon clown (my least favorite fish) and two watchman gobies that I actually thought had died a long time ago since I hadn't seen them for months! A day later with power still out, and the tank down to about 45 - 50 degrees, these three managed to hang in. The few corals I have seem okay too, though the polyps are still not fully opened. The aiptasia, however, are flourishing - some of them are massive...
I'm feeling incredibly sad about my fish and kicking myself, of course, for not throwing in the airstones right away in case that would have saved them. I'm not sure what, if anything people do about temperature when the power goes out...the gobies were so listless that I actually thought they had died too and almost removed them from the tank but just didn't have the stomach for it. Now that power has been restored for about 48 hours, they're lively again.
I think I'm going to want to rebuild the tank and will post again in a new thread asking for your excellent advice in how to do this intelligently so as to avoid the problems I was facing with bioload and nitrates.
Again, many thanks.
Sandy Lynn
Sanlynn
Premium Member
To Crapper5, I think your response is extremely insensitive. You are not the only one who cares about these fish or the environment in which they live! I wouldn't even cycle my tank with live fish as recommended by the LFS because I felt there had to be another way to do it!!
As far as the "amount of organic waste and crap you now have in your tank"...do you think I left the dead fish in it!!!???? I practically dismantled all of the rock to be able to pull out the dead bodies - crying hysterically the whole time. Or are you talking about something else?
Fortunately you are not the only poster on this forum or frankly this wouldn't be a place that people could come to learn!
As far as the "amount of organic waste and crap you now have in your tank"...do you think I left the dead fish in it!!!???? I practically dismantled all of the rock to be able to pull out the dead bodies - crying hysterically the whole time. Or are you talking about something else?
Fortunately you are not the only poster on this forum or frankly this wouldn't be a place that people could come to learn!
melev
Well-known member
Sandy, I'm truly sorry about the losses you've endured. Myself, I lost 8 beautiful fish three months ago when I accidentally forgot to turn on the pumps after feeding a coral, and only discovered my error 8 hours later. I was devasted to remove one gorgeous, healthy, colorful, thick fish after another - all due to my own stupid mistake. There is no doubt oxygen depravation killed those fish. In your situation, lack of oxygen plus colder water is a real problem. I don't know how to heat a tank, although I have read some experiences where people wrapped the tank up with thick blankets to keep what temperature they could.
A <b>generator</b> isn't really that expensive, and Pep-Boys has them on sale almost weekly for $250 to $300. A <b>power inverter</b> is cheaper, around $40 to $50 and you can hook that up to your car battery to produce a small amount of electricity to keep an air pump running. A computer <b>UPS</b> (battery backup) can run low wattage pumps for a while to maintain some circulation when the power goes out.
You can definitely set up your tank anew, and do it right this time. In your new thread, try getting all the information you can before you do anything, to avoid pitfalls and achieve success.
A <b>generator</b> isn't really that expensive, and Pep-Boys has them on sale almost weekly for $250 to $300. A <b>power inverter</b> is cheaper, around $40 to $50 and you can hook that up to your car battery to produce a small amount of electricity to keep an air pump running. A computer <b>UPS</b> (battery backup) can run low wattage pumps for a while to maintain some circulation when the power goes out.
You can definitely set up your tank anew, and do it right this time. In your new thread, try getting all the information you can before you do anything, to avoid pitfalls and achieve success.
while i think that crapper5's response is overly harsh and personal, you definately need to learn more about the needs of marine animals before you try to keep any more. oxygen is a basic requirement and it would have become quickly depleted in that tank--especially with all of those fish. really, i would suggest that your next best step would be to get your hands on some books and study as much as you can. and don't use that LFS any more.
where do you live that your power is that unreliable and that your home temperature dropped to 45? up in the mountains? i would also question the wisdom of trying to keep a reef at all in such an environment.
i agree that those two little airstones would not have done much to airate that big tank. when the power went out you should have just stayed up with your fish until the power came back and scooped and emptied buckets of water in order to keep it moving around.
where do you live that your power is that unreliable and that your home temperature dropped to 45? up in the mountains? i would also question the wisdom of trying to keep a reef at all in such an environment.
i agree that those two little airstones would not have done much to airate that big tank. when the power went out you should have just stayed up with your fish until the power came back and scooped and emptied buckets of water in order to keep it moving around.
AllenFord_SC
New member
Sandy, first of since no one else did it:
[welcome]
I am sorry to hear about your loss. I do agree that now is the time to read, read, and the read some more. In your next setup a fuge would not be a bad idea. You stated that your LFS was against you buying a RO/DI unit?!?!?! These guys are absolute morons!! No offense to you in any way but these guys saw you coming three miles away. If you are interested in a fuge for your next setup, I have a 55gallon tank sitting in my garage with your name on it. No charge. PM me if you want to work out the details. Best of luck.
P.S. Crapper5: Your comments are not only offensive and hurtful, they are very inapropriate.There are ways of suggesting a person does more research without belittling them.
[welcome]
I am sorry to hear about your loss. I do agree that now is the time to read, read, and the read some more. In your next setup a fuge would not be a bad idea. You stated that your LFS was against you buying a RO/DI unit?!?!?! These guys are absolute morons!! No offense to you in any way but these guys saw you coming three miles away. If you are interested in a fuge for your next setup, I have a 55gallon tank sitting in my garage with your name on it. No charge. PM me if you want to work out the details. Best of luck.
P.S. Crapper5: Your comments are not only offensive and hurtful, they are very inapropriate.There are ways of suggesting a person does more research without belittling them.
Sandy,
Don't take crapper5's comments to heart. The internet has no shortage of people who are full of themselves!! See my signature, it will make you feel better. Bummer to hear about your fish. I remember when Mark posted about his losses due to a simple mistake. This guy maintains an awesome website and has years of experience; it happens. Set it up even better this time. Best of luck!!
Don't take crapper5's comments to heart. The internet has no shortage of people who are full of themselves!! See my signature, it will make you feel better. Bummer to hear about your fish. I remember when Mark posted about his losses due to a simple mistake. This guy maintains an awesome website and has years of experience; it happens. Set it up even better this time. Best of luck!!
