Do i have crypt?

[rcerulli]

I seem to think so... I cant win with this tank, just as some background i have been battling a ammonia/nitrite spike for the past 5 days, been doing 25% water changed every other day or so.

Tank stock is:
2x domino damsel
1x emperor angel
1x percula clown
assorted inverts (crabs/shrimp/snails etc)

Here are pics of the culprits, i thought they might of been microbubbles since my coralife superskimmer likes to backup and put tons of bubbles in the tank, but i dont think so. Please let me know what you think, i know i need to treat the emperor angel with formalin (since angels are highly sensitive to copper). Question is can i treat all the fish with formalin, or should i use 2 hospitol tanks? Also it seems the breakout is very slow, like maybe 1 white dot every few days. I know there is a cycle, should i wait till the fish are more infected before treatment? Also the clown is showing no signs of it, but the damsel pictures has fanned his tail in the back of hole in the live rock a bit. Damsel has also visited cleaner shrimp as well.

Thanks all for the help :sad2:

here is a pic i took with the flash and the spots dont show up, but i still feel its crypt.

 

[Billybeau1]

Kinda hard to tell from the pictures. Could be just stress. Do they come and go, or do you see them all the time ?

There is a good crypt thread towards the top of the forum. Have you gone through that yet ?

 

[rcerulli]

yes ive read all the faq's and every faq on wetweb media. My water quality has been poor and i just found out the PH was 7.8 (really low) and the dots have come and gone on the damsel quite a few times (for example today i cant find any dots), but the angel has multiplied a few on his fins only, not really on the body.

I have since buffered the ph back up to 8.3 and everything seems to be ok, nitrites have been falling and ammonia is still trace. I have bought some "ich attack" that the LFS swears by, says hes been using it for 50 years in his store, i dont really have room/equipment for a hospitol tank so im going to try this if the infection gets worse by the weekend.

If it doesnt work and the infection is in full force im going to have to get hospital tanks and start formalin/copper treatment as i have a bunch of inverts in the tank.


Thanks!

 

[Billybeau1]

Yes with inverts you may have to get the fish out and put in a hospital tank. Hyposalinity works but you must be sure you have a reliable way of measuring salinity, like a refractometer.

Elevated nitrites don't harm saltwater fish like they do freshwater fish.

I would be more concerned with temperature and general water quality at this point.

A UV sterilizer may also help in your situation (long term). They don't do anything for parasites on the fish but they will kill anything that passes through it.

This is always a big debate here on RC as well as other forums. I just know I run one and have never had ich in my tank. Never.

BTW, Be careful with that buffer you are using. It'll drive your alkalinity through the roof.

Good luck !

 

[wooden_reefer]

Yes, nitrite is not very toxic, ammonia is.

Angels are not HIGHLY sensitive to copper, IMO. They are just somewhat more sensitive.

I have never had problem with effectiveness or toxicity when using Cu to treat any angel. I generally administer CU in pulses and don't bother with constant level.

Why would anyone have ammonia or nitrite problem? The cycling process should be so thorough and proactive that your livestock would not be exposed to significant ammonia. I always make sure that my nitritfication capacity is very high after cycling so that even if the tank were packed (hypothetically) the nitrification capacity will not be exceeded.

Certain antibiotics like kanamycin and neomycin can depress the nitrification bacteria and give trace of nitrite. This does not cause major problem if the population of nitrification bacteria is quite high, with plenty to spare.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10359500#post10359500 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1


A UV sterilizer may also help in your situation (long term). They don't do anything for parasites on the fish but they will kill anything that passes through it.

My experience is that usual size UV has only marginal impact on killing even just the infectious waterborne phase of the ich organism.

UV should work to this effect if it is sized many times usual, IMO.

Incidentally, the diatom filter does effectively remove most of the waterborne ich. It has to be recharged every several days. I don't use mine anymore, but when one has to fight fire (ich in reef tank SOS because of lack of committment to quarantine) it is nice to have.

 

[rcerulli]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10359500#post10359500 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
Yes with inverts you may have to get the fish out and put in a hospital tank. Hyposalinity works but you must be sure you have a reliable way of measuring salinity, like a refractometer.

Elevated nitrites don't harm saltwater fish like they do freshwater fish.

I would be more concerned with temperature and general water quality at this point.

A UV sterilizer may also help in your situation (long term). They don't do anything for parasites on the fish but they will kill anything that passes through it.

This is always a big debate here on RC as well as other forums. I just know I run one and have never had ich in my tank. Never.

BTW, Be careful with that buffer you are using. It'll drive your alkalinity through the roof.

Good luck !

Actually my alkalinity was 2.75 (7.7 dkh), i buffered up to 4.0 (11dkh)

in such ph went from 7.8 to 8.3

 

[rcerulli]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10359891#post10359891 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
Yes, nitrite is not very toxic, ammonia is.

Angels are not HIGHLY sensitive to copper, IMO. They are just somewhat more sensitive.

I have never had problem with effectiveness or toxicity when using Cu to treat any angel. I generally administer CU in pulses and don't bother with constant level.

Why would anyone have ammonia or nitrite problem? The cycling process should be so thorough and proactive that your livestock would not be exposed to significant ammonia. I always make sure that my nitrification capacity is very high after cycling so that even if the tank were packed (hypothetically) the nitrification capacity will not be exceeded.

Certain antibiotics like kanamycin and neomycin can depress the nitrification bacteria and give trace of nitrite. This does not cause major problem if the population of nitrification bacteria is quite high, with plenty to spare.

Welp, i am a newb pretty much and started with a LFS that wasnt much help. However i did cycle 4 weeks with 2 domino damsels, 45lbs live rock, and 20lbs live sand. I skimmed during the proccess and have a canister filter and not once during the proccess did i have much of any levels but trace ammonia. Finally the levels went to 0 and i added the clown and angel, and boom problems.

The new LFS i have been working with asked me if i use anti bacterial soap on my hands, i said yes, DIAL soap. He said its possible i didn't wash enough off and it may of causes some bacteria to die (who knows). And recommends only Ivory liquid soup.


P.S. also i examined the damsel closely just a few minutes ago, and it turns out he has over a dozen faint white spots, the size of a salt grain. They are hard to see unless looking close, but the angel is experiencing the same "micro dots" on his tail. Angel is devoid of spots on his body however. I am going to start the ich treatment tonight and let it go for a week and see how it goes, if it doesnt help at all, i will have to go the "real" route and hope it works. Again i live in an apartment and its hard to have extra tanks, but i am determined to be a good fish parent


Sucks being a noob, i have learned alot along the way, and hopefully one day when i get a house and a much bigger tank i will be seasoned enough not to experience these problems.

Thanks all for the advice, it means alot!

 

[Billybeau1]

Good luck and let us know how it goes. :thumbsup:

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10360316#post10360316 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rcerulli
Welp, i am a newb pretty much and started with a LFS that wasnt much help. However i did cycle 4 weeks with 2 domino damsels, 45lbs live rock, and 20lbs live sand. I skimmed during the proccess and have a canister filter and not once during the proccess did i have much of any levels but trace ammonia. Finally the levels went to 0 and i added the clown and angel, and boom problems.

Using damsels to cycle a tank is like trying to down an oak tree with a pocket knife.

If your live rock was uncured, ie decay and ammonification of dead organisms on it have not been complete, then you should have a rather high level of ammonia. Chances were that it was already cured and has little stuffs on it to decay, so your ammonia level had never reached a sufficiently high level for enough time for nitrosonomas bacteria population to reach a high level.

For a robust population of nitrosonomas bacteria, there must be significant accumulation of ammonia for enough time. The level of ammonia need not be high, but there must be accumulation for long enough time. Pulses of ammonia will achieve this so I use pulses of ammonia (decay of fish food).

Using uncured live rock to cycle a tank should work most of the time, but the whole idea of using uncured live rock to cycle a tank is absurb, not just IMHO but in strong opinion.

To cycle a tank, one needs a source of decayable material, medium for bacteria to grow, circulation and oxygenation, and bacteria seed.

If your livestock don't make it this time, I suggest that you thoroughly cycle your tank. Without any livestock, you can put finely chopped shrimp at the rate of one small shrimp for 50 gals of water twice or three times a week apart; in effect cycle again.

But I hope they make it and good luck.

 

[rcerulli]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10361521#post10361521 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
Using damsels to cycle a tank is like trying to down an oak tree with a pocket knife.

If your live rock was uncured, ie decay and ammonification of dead organisms on it have not been complete, then you should have a rather high level of ammonia. Chances were that it was already cured and has little stuffs on it to decay, so your ammonia level had never reached a sufficiently high level for enough time for nitrosonomas bacteria population to reach a high level.

For a robust population of nitrosonomas bacteria, there must be significant accumulation of ammonia for enough time. The level of ammonia need not be high, but there must be accumulation for long enough time. Pulses of ammonia will achieve this so I use pulses of ammonia (decay of fish food).

Using uncured live rock to cycle a tank should work most of the time, but the whole idea of using uncured live rock to cycle a tank is absurb, not just IMHO but in strong opinion.

To cycle a tank, one needs a source of decayable material, medium for bacteria to grow, circulation and oxygenation, and bacteria seed.

If your livestock don't make it this time, I suggest that you thoroughly cycle your tank. Without any livestock, you can put finely chopped shrimp at the rate of one small shrimp for 50 gals of water twice or three times a week apart; in effect cycle again.

But I hope they make it and good luck.

That makes complete sense and is an answer no one thus far could give me. I do have a feeling the fish will make it through the water quality... the ich is a whole nother ballgame which i think can be attributed to rapid temp changes.

Because i live in the top floor of a house, the temp up here can reach 90 degrees no problem, i try to keep the AC on whenever possible, however the tank usually hovers around 84F, but has gone down to 78 on a cool day ( i have the heater set to 75). Purchasing a water chiller is not practical due to lack of power, lack of sump, space concerns and perhaps even price ($400+). However if you tell me its a complete necessity then i will go get one if i need to.

Nitrites are lowering, ammonia is trace, and nitrates are in full force (hovering between 5-10ppm) so i think i can survive the water issues.


Thanks!

 

[loosbrew]

im not trying to be mean, just honest, but has anyone ever told you that a 46 gal isnt really large enough for your Angel?

but back to your issue at hand. if levels are going down and your little guys are handling it ok, make sure you get your temp in order. if you cannot get a chiller to keep it below 84, set your heater to 82 ish, a steady 2 degree drop at night isnt as bad a 6 degree drop. my tank has been at 82 for years now.

good luck!

 

[rcerulli]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10361960#post10361960 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loosbrew
im not trying to be mean, just honest, but has anyone ever told you that a 46 gal isnt really large enough for your Angel?

but back to your issue at hand. if levels are going down and your little guys are handling it ok, make sure you get your temp in order. if you cannot get a chiller to keep it below 84, set your heater to 82 ish, a steady 2 degree drop at night isnt as bad a 6 degree drop. my tank has been at 82 for years now.

good luck!

Chalk it up to the LFS that i worked with originally, they also told me he was docile! What a joke.. Well for now im stuck with him, and i actually love him, hes the dog i never had! but when he gets to 6" or so, i am going to look to trade him or get a bigger tank. right now hes a great size for the tank (3") and has plenty of room to swim with only 3 other relatively small tank mates.

I have no further plans to add any more livestock till i have decided to do something with the fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The air temperature at one instance does not always determine the water temperature, as water has very high specific heat.

Is the relative humidity in your area high or low? Is the air is dry, you can use evaporative cooler effect by using fans when it is very hot.

Make sure you have very good gaseous exhange. No compromise in good gaseous exhange during hot weather.

What are you going to do if it is indeed ich?

Some important facts and considerations:

1. "Straight" copper (vs cheleated copper) at 0.2 ppm metalic copper does not significantly depress your nitritication capacity, but will harm your invertebrates.

2. If you use straight copper, it will deposit on your live rock if it is in the tank. The effect is contraversial. I tend to think that a small amount of copper carbonate deposit will not interfere with using it as live rock, but I don't know. I have never been in this situation as I always quarentine and have a cycled QT standing by.

3. You can try hypo. You may split up your cycled live rock, part for invertebrate and stays in show tank, and part with fish in QT and do hypo in QT.

 

[rcerulli]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10362175#post10362175 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
The air temperature at once instance does not always determine the water temperature, as water has very high specific heat.

Is the relative humidity in your area high or low? Is the air is dry, you can use evaporative cooler effect by using fans when it is very hot.

Make sure you have very good gaseous exhange. No compromise in good gaseous exhange during hot weather.

What are you going to do if it is indeed ich?

Some important facts and considerations:

1. "Straight" copper (vs cheleated copper) at 0.2 ppm metalic copper does not significantly depress your nitritication capacity, but will harm your invertebrates.

2. If you use straight copper, it will deposit on your live rock if it is in the tank. The effect is contraversial. I tend to think that a small amount of copper carbonate deposit will not interfere with using it as live rock, but I don't know. I have never been in this situation as I always quarentine and have a cycled QT standing by.

3. You can try hypo. You may split up your cycled live rock, part for invertebrate and stays in show tank, and part with fish in QT and do hypo in QT.

I am using something called "ich attack" by kordon. The new LFS im working with says its great and he has been using it for years to treat ich in his reef tanks. Its invert safe, even safe enough for baby seahorses he said (i guess they are sensitive?). If it turns out to be a gimmick i will have to decide what im going to do.

The live rock piece sounds good, but again ive read copper is bad for angels so im guessing the angel will need his own QT. How will i attain these cycled QT's im not sure, maybe take the LR out, put in the QT do copper treatment and then consider these rocks QT only rocks not safe for inverts. Then i would purchase new LR. (or i can try the hypo option, would need to purchase a refractometer as i currently use a floating glass hydrometer)

My last and worst option is let the fish die (ugh). And do this all over again the right way... A horrible horrible option, but i dont even know if this would prevent me from getting ich again.

This would of been so much easier if the GF let me get a dog

But i got fish, and im going to do my best to beat the odds, even with my limited space and utilities.

As for the gaseous exchange, humidity hear is pretty low for the most part, we have had a relative dry/cool summer. It's being on the second floor with the sun beating on the roof non stop thats causing temp issues. As for flow, i currently have a marineland maxi-jet 1200 (295GPH), and a 400 (100GPGH) facing eachother right now at staggered heights. I had (2) 1200's in the tank but the fish nearly had a heart attack so i removed them both, added the 400 first for a few days, then the 1200. They have seemed to cope with them and perhaps even enjoy the extra flow (i find the damsels swimming in the direction of the power head for endless swimming)


If worse comes to worse, i heard this guy is pretty good, and can help me out..

 

[rcerulli]

Just as an update, Crypt is in full force, and the percula clown and angel werent doing well this morning. I tried the reef safe crap and after doing a ton more reading i am going to discontinue use and do the QT/Chelated copper approach. I seriously think its jeopardizing the fishes health. I will leave the tank fallow for 6 weeks to break the cycled. Thanks all for the help, seems i knew the answer all along

 

[rcerulli]

Disregard last post, i am actually going to try hyposalinity first as i am worried about the angel and copper, i did buy seacure copper and a instant ocean test kit. I will keep these for when i start my QT practice on all new fish.

Hospital tank is as follows:

20 gallon all-glass aquarium
hydro-sponge filter II
tetra silent air pump
marineland 75 watt heater
(2) PVC elbows for fish to hide in

i am starting with a Salinity of 1.022 as that is what my tank is and ph 8.3 (using buffer). Temp will be 85 degrees. I will slowly over 72 hours moved the SG down to 1.009 to induce hyposalinity.

As of right now angel was laying on his side this morning with his tail curved (might be due to rapid ph gain yesterday). I fed him and he ate like a horse as usual and is now swimming around like hes healthy as an ox (still has tons of spots on the fins however).

The percula clown has been hiding all day, hasn't really eaten much and is looking a little light in the face, not doing so well.


To quick cycle the tank i am do 50% new water, 50% old tank water. I will also be adding Bio-Spira to help the cycle as well, im hoping to get the fish in the hospital tank within 48 hours.

Any thoughts/comments?

 

[wooden_reefer]

Cheleated copper such as CopperSafe tends to be stable.

The advantanges is as advertised, but the disadvantages are:

1. Hard to remove. Watch out for the small bit of transfer water laden with Coppersafe when you transfer your fish back to the reef tank. A very small amount would be OK, I believe.

2. This type of cu can become quite toxic, perhaps when the chelation is weak. I don't know. I had very serious problem with Coopersafe once back in the early 80's. I have not tried the newer products. Straight Cu has been serving me quite well for decades.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The last time I used Coppersafe in c. 1980, my angel stayed on its side.

I have not have any such problem after using just straight copper. The instability of straight Cu is a good feature to me. I use straight cu in pulses.

 

[rcerulli]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10367886#post10367886 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
The last time I used Coppersafe in c. 1980, my angel stayed on its side.

I have not have any such problem after using just straight copper. The instability of straight Cu is a good feature to me. I use straight cu in pulses.

Copper will be plan B, hypo will be first, just finished brewing some new water for the display tank, will do a 25% water change tomorrow and put that water in the hospital tank, then introduce bio-spira and let it sit for a day