Do I stand a chance? GHA and Red Slime

ericdamangus

New member
I have a horrible GHA and Red Slime issue in my tank. My thoughts are that nutrients have been built up from never using RO/DI. I have now started using RO/DI water and have made 4, 15gallon water changes over the past 4 weeks. (on a 75g tank)

During this time I've tested for nitrate, phosphate, calc and alk. Now my water params appear to be right on target.

Current attempts to solve the problem:
Raise my skimmer for a heavy more wet skim.
I tried a 2 day lights out period 2 weeks ago
Weekly 15G water changes
Manual Removal of GHA over the past two weeks.
Marine Algaefix
Light feedings

Here is a pictures that shows some of the extent of the problem and where I currently have a small bag of GFO which I just started over the weekend.

picture.php


It appears that the problem hasn't gotten any worse, but it also hasn't gotten better.

Has anyone else been through this? Were you ever able to fully recover your tank? Any advice would be great!

Thanks!
Eric
 
Gfo water changes and Mexican turbo snails and Sally light foots


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/S00h-EB_928eFPqEutPlkg?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_MoIvsMXqKTM/TZulqpcUmiI/AAAAAAAAABQ/DSiC7FlUyu8/s144/2011-04-05_18-33-16_438.jpg" height="144" width="81" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/105420100388411895701/ReefTank?feat=embedwebsite">Reef Tank</a></td></tr></table>
 
Although some of this may look like coralline, odds are its the red slime...

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SQQHaaEycoldM_TaKdjUcw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_MoIvsMXqKTM/TZuldi41mYI/AAAAAAAAABE/F4uQvwmjcKQ/s144/2011-04-05_18-32-41_659.jpg" height="81" width="144" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/105420100388411895701/ReefTank?feat=embedwebsite">Reef Tank</a></td></tr></table>
 
2" Blue Hippo Tang
2" Scopas tang
2" Mystery Wrasse
2" Golden Headed Sleeper Goby
1" Red Scooter Blenny
5 Scarlet Crabs
5 Astrea Snails
Had two Mexican Turbos- Didn't make it... Everything else seems to be healthy (although clearly the algae tells me otherwise)
 
Try exporting as much of the red slime and algae during your water changes. You may want to reduce your light cycle time to help along with the reduced feeding.
 
I recommend 3 days of darkness. Cover the three exposed sides with something. I use a dishwasher box i cut to fit my tank perfectly. Raise your PH to 8.2-8.3 prior and keep a close eye on it. I personally would use kalkwasser to raise ph gradually. Kalkwasser has a tendencies to precipitate phosphate. Followed by shorter light cycles when you start back up. If you can take before and after pics too.
It may or may not be significant, but I discuss it here:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

specifically here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php#10

from it:

Phosphate Reduction via Calcium Phosphate Precipitation



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One mechanism for phosphate reduction in reef aquaria may simply be the precipitation of calcium phosphate, Ca3(PO4)2. The water in many reef aquaria is supersaturated with respect to this material, as its equilibrium saturation concentration in normal seawater is only 0.002 ppm phosphate. As with CaCO3, the precipitation of Ca3(PO4)2 in seawater may be limited more by kinetic factors than by equilibrium factors, so it is impossible to say how much will precipitate under reef aquarium conditions (without, of course, somehow determining it experimentally). This precipitation may be especially likely where calcium and high pH additives (such as limewater) enter the aquarium water. The locally high pH converts much of the HPO4-- to PO4---. Combined with the locally high calcium level (also from the limewater), the locally high PO4--- level may push the supersaturation of Ca3(PO4)2 to unstable levels, causing precipitation. If these calcium phosphate crystals are formed in the water column (e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the aquarium water), then they may become coated with organics and be skimmed out of the aquarium.

Many reefkeepers accept the concept that adding limewater reduces phosphate levels. This may be true, but the mechanism remains to be demonstrated. Craig Bingman has done a variety of experiments related to this hypothesis, and has published them in the old Aquarium Frontiers magazine. While many aquarists may not care what the mechanism is, knowing how it occurs will help us understand the limits of this method, and how to best employ it.

One possible mechanism could be through calcium phosphate precipitation, as outlined above. A second mechanism for potential phosphate reduction when using high pH additives is the binding of phosphate to calcium carbonate surfaces. The absorption of phosphate from seawater onto aragonite is pH dependent, with the binding maximized at around pH 8.4 and with less binding occurring at lower and higher pH values. Habib Sekha (owner of Salifert) has pointed out that limewater additions may lead to substantial precipitation of calcium carbonate in reef aquaria. This idea makes perfect sense. After all, it is certainly not the case that large numbers of reef aquaria exactly balance calcification needs by replacing all evaporated water with saturated limewater. And yet, many aquarists find that calcium and alkalinity levels are stable over long time periods with just that scenario. One way this can be true is if the excess calcium and alkalinity, which such additions typically add to the aquarium, are subsequently removed by precipitation of calcium carbonate (such as on heaters, pumps, sand, live rock, etc.). It is this ongoing precipitation of calcium carbonate, then, that may reduce the phosphate levels; phosphate binds to these growing surfaces and becomes part of the solid precipitate.

If the calcium carbonate crystal is static (not growing), then this process is reversible, and the aragonite can act as a reservoir for phosphate. This reservoir can inhibit the complete removal of excess phosphate from a reef aquarium that has experienced very high phosphate levels, and may permit algae to continue to thrive despite all external phosphate sources having been cut off. In such extreme cases, removal of the substrate may even be required.

If the calcium carbonate deposits are growing, then phosphate may become buried in the growing crystal, which can act as a sink for phosphate, at least until that CaCO3 is somehow dissolved. Additionally, if these crystals are in the water column (e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the aquarium water), then they may become coated with organics and be skimmed out of the aquarium.

If phosphate binds to calcium carbonate surfaces to a significant extent in reef aquaria, then this mechanism may be attained with other high pH additive systems (such as some of the two-part additives, including Recipe #1 of my DIY system). However, this potential precipitation of phosphate on growing calcium carbonate surfaces will not be as readily attained with low pH systems, such as those using calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors or those where the pH is low due to excessive atmospheric carbon dioxide, because the low pH inhibits the precipitation of excess calcium and alkalinity as calcium carbonate, as well as inhibiting the binding of phosphate to calcium carbonate.
 
Last edited:
The first step in coming up with a solution is to first assess the issue, which as you mentioned is obviously the use of tap water. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but at this point whatever nutrients were entered into the tank have already leached into your live sand and rock. I'm not saying that it's impossible to completely eliminate them the natural way, but at this point IMO you are much better off starting out with new sand and drying/recycling your current LR. Doing water changes and few days without light isn't going to remove all of the phosphates (and whatever else) may be embedded into the pores of the rock that are causing these blooms.

I'm hesitant to recommend chemical remedies unless all other methods have been exhausted, but in your case I would highly recommend a strong dose of Chemiclean / Red Slime Remover.

If reincarnating your live rock isn't an option, at least the Red Slime Remover will give you a head start. Again, JMO. Good luck!
 
Siphon it out.
Get your PO4 and NO3 levels confirmed.
Do a series of 4 or five 20% water changes over teh course of a week. Use a phosphate binder preferably gfo or lanthanum chloirde . If the rock or substrate has been exposed to high PO4 it may take months of surrounding it with low PO4 water for it to equilibriate ;but it will.
Other things like metals will be bound to organics and rendered harmless and exportable by granulated activated carbon and skimming over time.In meantime running some poly filter or cuprisporb would help remove any free metals if they are there.

Many folks run reefs with tap water;I don't because of the risk of things like free copper even at very low levels. But exposure to tap water won't ruin the rock beyond repair.
Cyanobaceria can give off toxins and you have a lot. Remove it via siphoning.,brushing it off and netting it and/or mechanical fitration Lights out may cause it to wane but it will dump everything back as it dies and lights out strategies stress zooxanthelae too if you are keeping photosyntetic corals .
Limewater( kalk ) may precipitate some phosphate but not much ime and the hypothesis that it does so at all is very plausible but unproven. Limewater adds calcium and alkalinity and raises ph and it is not effective as a primary inorganic phosphate remover.

Check your salinity if it is very low it might be causing die off in or on the rock fueling the cyano.

Lighten up on feeding.

Blow off the rock and substrate and clean out as much detritus as you can.
 
Footnote .
While chemiclean or red slime remover works to kill some of it.; you have a lot. All of that die off could tox the tank or at least deplete oxygen as it died and decayed from the treatment. There are a number of reports of tank crashes when Red slime remover is used against heavy cyano infestations.. So I'd hold off on that as a last resort and then only after removing all I could manually.


I also neglected to mention running gac(granualted activated carbon) will help and it is more effective than skimming at removing many types of organics including those holding metals.

Never heard of a Sally Lightfoot crab(Percnon gibbesi) eating cyanobacteria. When small they might it some green algae but they are predatory and primarily carnivorous. They will eat your smaller fish, other crabs and snails and shred anemones and corals when they get bigger.
 
My bf and I had a similar issue when we moved his tank into the city of Syracuse and were using tap water. Once we switched to RO/Di water, it's taken 4 or 5 months of weekly/bi-weekly water changes, running carbon, manual removal, and sand syphoning to remove the GHA and, for the most part the cyano, out of the tank. I'd definitely recommend trying to remove as much of the GHA off the rocks as possible...I used an extra pair of eyebrow tweezers I had lying around...it did a great job. We're still battling a few random cyano bubbles with more water changes, as neither of us want to add in Red slime remover unless absolutely necessary. The red slime is easy to suck up off of rocks, etc with a small air tube. As tmz stated, consistent water changes, multiple times a week, is the best way to decrease the excess nutrients in your water, sand bed, and LR. Good luck!
 
Wow, thanks everyone for all the detailed help! After putting everything together this is the plan I came up with:

  • have a lights out period of a few days
  • 20% water changes approximately 3 times a week for next 3 weeks.
  • Use GFO and Carbon in filter bag in an area of high flow in DT
  • I plan on using BRS Half Gallon - 1.5 Pounds Premium ROX 0.8 Aquarium Carbon and BRS Half Gallon - 2 Pounds Bulk GFO Pellets Ferric Oxide.
  • Before water changes, blast the LR with a power head and manually remove as much GHA as possible. Suck up Red Slime with hose.

Based on the BRS calculator this supply should last me 8 weeks in a 75g tank.

Is there any reason why I can't put both in the same filter bag replacing weekly?

If there are any steps that I missed or you think I should add please let me know.

Thanks again everyone.
 
Eric,

Sounds like a good plan.

I've had cyano it and never used lights out. If you have no highly autotrophic corals it may be ok but I wouldn't do it until I siphoned or filtered out as much cyano as possible. Running some sort of filter sock or hang on the back filter or canister filter with filter pads during the blow off/ siphon off can make the cleanup easier.

If you put gfo and gac in the same bag you'll have to change it at the same time . GFO will likely need to be changed more frequently than the carbon if the PO4 is high. GFO can exhaust overnight when there is a lot of PO3 in the water. GAC should last a few weeks to a month.

Testing for PO4 and NO3 along the way is helpful.

Substrate could be an issue too. Don't know what you have or it's age.

GFO can be regenrated to save some $.
Lanthanum Chloride is also effective and inexpensive.

Here are links to threads on each of these methods:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1838961&highlight=gfo+on+the+cheap

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474839&highlight=gfo+on+the+cheap

Good luck
 
TMZ-Never heard of a Sally Lightfoot crab(Percnon gibbesi) eating cyanobacteria. When small they might it some green algae but they are predatory and primarily carnivorous. They will eat your smaller fish, other crabs and snails and shred anemones and corals when they get bigger.---

Ive had sallylight foots and never had any problems with them bothering any of my corals or fish. Ive heard their are a couple different species and that the wrong one might be bad.....
Ive seen mine eat GHA but i dont know how much of it they will consume. I have heard that emerald crabs are great with GHA on a side note.

I would take my time and if it takes a few months to take care of it naturally then so be it. I like natural compared to chemicals!!!
Get 4 to 5 emerald crabs(the larger the better), a foxface fish (they love GHA) and one or two more GHA eating fish,my Yellow tang eats it too!!! You can always sell the fish after your problem is solved. And do weekly 25-35% water changes while running carbon.
Best of luck with your battle!!! These are just my experiences and opinions!!
 
One thing I don't see here in the recommendations is to make sure that you have ample waterflow. I would add another powerhead blowing across the rocks. RSA doesn't like water flow and it will help keep your pH levels up. I also want to reiterate that your source water is very important. You can change all the water you want but if your water has a high level of DOCs, nitrates and phosphates all you're doing is making your situation worse. Either get a good 0ppm RODI system or go to your local grocery store and use one of the Culligan systems.

JM2C.
 
I run my gfo and carbon in a reactor
I believe the gfo should tumble and the water needs to be "forced" threw the carbon

So I have my gfo in the reactor a 1/4 to 1/2 full and then the carbon in the next chamber full to the top



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
For clarification: I don't know of any crabs that eat cyano. They are all predatory ,However. The sally lightfoot (Percon gibbesi)is particualy so. I've never seen any other variant than the Prcon gibbesi in the hobby. Thee are numerous reports of the damage they cause as they get larger up to 4 inches

. For more on them see : "Marine Reef Invertebrates". by Dr Ronald Shimek,pg 263.

This from it:
"...Not reef safe...;.. 'Jeklyl and Hyde crab',it will seem safe for months and then will undergo a personality shift ,probably due to sexual maturity...;... The crab lunges and often catches fishes. Large one's will tear apart sea anemones and corals to get their gut contents and they will feast on small hermit crabs. These crabs are very fast and nearly impossible to catch,except in baited traps..."
 
I agree gfo is more efficient in a reactor but it works in a bag too. Ditto gac.
Flow is a good thing but unfortunately cyano doesn't seem to mind it. Flow will move out decaying matter and thus may cut back on localized nutrient pools that may otherwise contribute to cyano growth. When it involves surface agitation more flow may increase gas exchange bringing CO2 in the tank to room air levels more quickly. If the room air is lower than the tank in CO2 ,then it will raise the ph.

All in all knocking down PO4 is a key in my opinion. Cyano needs only CO2, light and water and some source for phosphorous to thrive. It is ubiquitous and opportunistic and has been around since life began. It can uniquely produce it's own organic nitrogen,and can actually add it to a system.
 
Could I put the GFO and GAC in the same filter bag and place that bag inside the filter sock on my return into the sump? From what i've read you can have too much flow through the media.

My only problem with buying a reactor is that I will only need a half cup of each (replaced weekly). So it seems like a bit of an overkill to buy a reactor for such a small amount of media.

Will a reactor make that much of a difference that I should go out and buy one?
 
Back
Top