Does Dissolved Organic Carbon enable Anaerobic Denitrification?

[Mxx]

It seems that for anaerobic denitrification to occur, anaerobic bacteria require an organic carbon source to act as an electron donor. Accordingly-

A: Does Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC) actually act as a carbon source to fuel denitrification to any extent?
B: What does this do to the DOC molecules then? Destroys/reduces them somehow to their component elements?
C: To enable anaerobic denitrification, should I not use activated carbon in my filter as that removes the DOC's I perhaps require to prevent nitrate accumulation?
D: Does the use of a powerful UV sterilizer or ozone oxidize the DOC's and thus render them incapable of being used to enable denitrification?
E: What is perhaps the best size media to use in a canister filter to achieve the most effective anaerobic denitrification, the smaller Seachem De*nitrate or the progressively larger Matrix or Pond Matrix?

P.S. Hi reefers, I've been lurking here as of late to try and research everything as a soon-to-be incoming noob to the marine world! My background is in freshwater planted tanks, and I'll have to ask you to excuse me for my question actually relates partially to that... However, I can't find an answer on the freshwater side of the hobby, but it certainly appears that reefers do actually delve much more into that level of depth required on topics such as this. And the underlying biology and ecologically is fundamentally the same for the most part, even if methodologies differ between FW and SW, with these questions in particular likely relating to each for many including myself, (apart from the fact that FW don't then use skimmers to subsequently remove the organic carbon which has been added).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

[welcome]

I'm not sure if you are referring to intentionally dosed organic carbon (vinegar, vodka, sugar, pellets, etc), or naturally occurring DOC in the aquarium.

A. I expect that some portion of dosed organic carbon does indeed act to drive denitrification. What portion probably depends on what is dosed and a hundred other properties of the tank system,.

B. The organic molecules can end up as CO2, primarily, or can get incorporated into bacteria tissues.

C. GAC won't remove the usual sources of dosed carbon, such as vinegar or vodka.

D. UV won't do much. A lot of ozone treatment might oxidize some, but not much. The molecules we dose are fairly resistant to ozone.

E. Couldn't say what media is best. Live rock and sand might be more than enough when dosing organic carbon.

 

[Mxx]

Hi Randy, many thanks for the very helpful response! And wow, 78K posts!...

I'm speaking of naturally occurring DOC in the aquarium. I prefer to rely primarily upon natural biological processes without interference when possible, with technological and manual measures to back that up as necessary.

I was fearing that by filtering with GAC I was interfering with the natural process, and thereby circumventing the denitrification which would be occurring naturally had I been taking a more hands-off approach.

But I wasn't sure if the DOC naturally occurring in our systems was an appropriate type of carbon to enable denitrification to occur, or if it is instead necessary for the carbon to be in perhaps a generally more complex form such as the carbohydrate of sugar, or ethanol.

If detrimental buildups of DOC combined with detrimental buildups of nitrates is what enables anaerobic denitrification to occur and thereby reduce each of these, thereby producing CO2 which is easily off-gassed given some decent current, then that's a win-win situation it seems...

I haven't dosed carbon before, but it's something I will be looking into further if necessary. However, if I got that route I'd prefer to do that via solid pellet forms, such as the 'pearls' we see advertised, to ensure the heterotrophic bacteria resulting from that stay primarily within the substrate.

C) I suppose there is a balance to be found here of enabling denitrification, while preventing build-ups of natural DOC's via the use of GAC. I suppose if I monitored a redox meter, then I could determine how my DOC levels are responding and if denitrification reduces these as well, perhaps.

D) I'm relatively sure that strong UV light can reduce (in the chemical-molecule sense), many dissolved compounds through oxidation, which are otherwise not bio-available for plants and corals for instance. However, what I was sure about was whether such filtration would be instead competing AGAINST the bacteria that achieve denitrification, if those organic compounds are what they use as their carbon fuel sources. But certainly good to know if the carbon we'd dose is resistant to oxidation and GAC.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

gassed given some decent current, then that's a win-win situation it seems...

I haven't dosed carbon before, but it's something I will be looking into further if necessary. However, if I got that route I'd prefer to do that via solid pellet forms, such as the 'pearls' we see advertised, to ensure the heterotrophic bacteria resulting from that stay primarily within the substrate.

.

That was the initial selling point, but it doesn't appear to hold up. Remote outbreaks of cyano suggest that organics do leak from the system.

Couple that with a bunch of other issues and I pretty strongly prefer vinegar dosing. But both methods can be made to work.

C. I'm not sure ORP is very useful for monitoring organics.

D. Yes, UV can spur reactions, but there is no evidence that the sorts of UV sterilizers has any impact of DOC. Even ozone, which clearly does react with organics, does not generally lower DOC.

 

[Mxx]

Thanks, I dosed organic carbon last night, both in the form of vodka and solid carbohydrates. But I think I overdid it. I wouldn't say it caused the system to crash, but there subtle signs of a hangover today, including some cloudiness. I followed that up by dosing nitrates in bacon form, to see if that would help to break down the excess of ethanol as well, but don't have a test kit to check whether this worked. Clearly I'd better use much smaller quantities if I'm gong to be adding it to my aquarium instead...



C. I thought ORP might provide some indication of BOD - Biological Oxygen Demand, albeit not that direct of one, but I could be entirely mistaken and the two having nothing to do with one another.

 

[thereefranch]

For what its worth:

I used to dose vodka for years (10+). Cyano patches were common until the system got some age on it.

With todays technology, the pellets are much easier. They work best when you combine a few other factors to them. For one, daily or weekly dosing of beneficial bacteria goes a long way. Either Bio-mate by Zeo, or Microbacter7 by brightwell work very well (imo: brightwell is much cheaper and maybe a little more effective). If you do drops in the morning each day, better yet. The idea is to maintain a higher density of 'good' bacteria. More is not better, so don't dump the bottle in.

Also, the use of a 'flocculator' is huge in maintaining a cyano free tank when using carbon dosing in any form. Take a look at Zeo Coral Snow and you will find it is a size clay that they are using to make the product. Seriously, it is a clay and water mix. What it does is this: the clay is a particulate matter that easily combines with other things.....like bacteria, doc's, even other particulate material. They tend to stick together......and be drawn out by the skimmer very rapidly. Zeo claims the corals eat the material and spit the clay back out, but I havent seen that. But the bottom line is that it is a way of 'exporting' and thus makes managing bacteria much easier. Plus, you will find that your skimmer will be overall more productive.

In the beginning of a new tank on the pellets, if you see a patch of cyano here or there, here is the fix: Use a powerhead and blow off all your rockscape to get the cyano in suspension. Then dose twice the amount of Coral Snow. For the next week, dose the recommended amount of Coral Snow daily. Dose the beneficial bacteria after the water clears. Your basically exporting the cyano and injecting good bacterial. Over time, the need to use the Coral Snow will only be when you do a general 'blow off' of your rockscape.

I stray away from UV sterilizers, ozone, etc. Todays most successful reef tanks are well managed bacteria systems that corals and fish live in. If you embrace that aspect, your miles ahead of anyone throwing their money at it with this gadget, or that one. That's what we did 10-15 years ago.:headwally:

People see my tank and think I work my a** off, but I really don't. They think there is a sea of 'high tech systems' under it, but there's not. They think I must not feed much, but I do! Those were exactly what I did 15 years ago. Now it is much simpler.....

By the way Randy.....78K post is huge. Good for you. I mainly lurk in the background, but felt you may catch something here too. If reefers would just learn 'bacteria management' then our hobby would advance greatly. I say this because I live in Houston (4-5 million people), and it utterly amazes me that the LFS do not do anything I have listed above, nor do they preach it. Maybe it is because they want things to die and you to come back to replace.......more leave the hobby from death than stay in.....

 

[thereefranch]

"Thanks, I dosed organic carbon last night, both in the form of vodka and solid carbohydrates. But I think I overdid it. I wouldn't say it caused the system to crash, but there subtle signs of a hangover today, including some cloudiness. I followed that up by dosing nitrates in bacon form, to see if that would help to break down the excess of ethanol as well, but don't have a test kit to check whether this worked. Clearly I'd better use much smaller quantities if I'm gong to be adding it to my aquarium instead...
"

Case in point....... you can not overdose Pellets or the beneficial bacterial.

And I would have used the 'flocculator' to remove any suspended bacteria bloom instead of playing chemist.......

 

[Mxx]

"Thanks, I dosed organic carbon last night, both in the form of vodka and solid carbohydrates. But I think I overdid it. I wouldn't say it caused the system to crash, but there subtle signs of a hangover today, including some cloudiness. I followed that up by dosing nitrates in bacon form, to see if that would help to break down the excess of ethanol as well, but don't have a test kit to check whether this worked. Clearly I'd better use much smaller quantities if I'm gong to be adding it to my aquarium instead...
"

Case in point....... you can not overdose Pellets or the beneficial bacterial.

And I would have used the 'flocculator' to remove any suspended bacteria bloom instead of playing chemist.......

Yeah, but you can totally overdose on Mojitos and pizza!... Okay, a bit too subtle, wasn't it? :celeb2:

Excellent helpful denitration advice however!

 

[thereefranch]

LoL !!!

Here in Texas we overdose on Margaritas and Fajitas!! I learned to go Top Shelf, or reef tanks is the last thing on my mind!!

Hope the best with your tank... cheers! :beer:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For what its worth:

With todays technology, the pellets are much easier. They work best when you combine a few other factors to them. For one, daily or weekly dosing of beneficial bacteria goes a long way. Either Bio-mate by Zeo, or Microbacter7 by brightwell work very well (imo: brightwell is much cheaper and maybe a little more effective). If you do drops in the morning each day, better yet. The idea is to maintain a higher density of 'good' bacteria. More is not better, so don't dump the bottle in.

...

Why is it easier? You mean easier than in the past with pellets, or easier than soluble organic carbon dosing

Perhaps we just disagree on that, but especially if you think that frequent bacteria dosing is necessary with pellets (it apparently isn't with vinegar dosing), it seems to me that soluble organic dosing is easier.

I also disagree with the idea that pellets cannot be overdosed. Why not? It seems some people think they have by using too much and getting bleached corals.

 

[thereefranch]

I say it is easier than soluble carbon from the standpoint that most reefers do not have the years of experience that you and I have. Thus, they are prone to overdosing, or maybe adding other elements into the equation. (check above)....and their daily routine may or may not happen. Pellets still work even if you don't dose.

In addition, I feel the pellets equalize to the feeding regimen of the tank much easier. The carbon needs some adjustment if there are changes in the feeding or in the load of the tank. The pellets colonize the bacteria and thus balance the equation out with either more or less on their own. No user input needed. Feeding is probably the most overlooked, skewed answer you will get from people. Try doing a tank maintenance service.... Yet feeding is the leading reason were talking about nitrate reduction anyway. So something that keeps up with the fluctuations of the average reefer feeding their tank is a plus in my book. BTW: I also preach to feed the same amount each day, or collectively each week. Keeping the food input at a constant value will also stabilize the bacteria population and cyano will not be an issue. ( I bet you knew that! )

Dosing soluble carbon does not ensure you will not have cyano. It is always present in any system and thus competes. There are other issues that can lead to it patching up. Water flow, feeding, and light come to mind. Not to mention skimmer, or any questions as to size, efficiency, location. Too many variables.

I do agree that some small particles do sheer off the pellets and free float. But that's no difference than carbon 'free floating' feeding the bacteria present in the system. I designed a 'Bio Track' several years ago when the pellets came out and it works very well. No pump needed and the pellets 'churn'. I haven't had any mush, missing pellets, etc. So I feel confident they physically last.

As far as bacteria dosing...... My opinion is that you can play a major role in the 'natural selection' process by dosing beneficial bacteria strains known to do the job. In addition, you will find some products include enzymes that help continue the natural process that are not necessarily in abundance as needed in a closed loop system. Carbon dosing included, you will benefit. I prefer drops per day as I'm a seasoned reefer (and have a daily routine), but the average joe may consider once a week additions for ease. Bottom line, this is the first step in 'managing the bacteria'. I think of it as similar to using RO/DI water. Its a base point you can skew your way.
If you are having success not dosing, I would hang that in the experience department and the fact that you probably have a stable tank. Thats why your paid the big bucks!!

On the bleached coral topic..........don't get me started....... Lighting is probably one of the biggest players... Bleaching in reference to the pellets is nonsense. Some corals may adjust differently as the nitrates and phosphates drop. And there maybe more or less adjustment depending on the start of the nitrates and the length of time the coral considered that level its home. This holds true to initial carbon dosing too.
Further, with the lower nutrient system, as you know, the corals lighten up some. And some systems water clarity will increase and thus PAR levels increase and the coral adjusts with lighter color...so add the lighter color (Lns), the increase in light, and the adjustment parameters...and walla, you got some bleached corals. Its a sum of many factors. To label 'Pellets' as the sole reason is ignorance to the whole picture. And if you apply the 'Patience is a Virtue' rule, I'll bet that the corals adjust and over time recondition to the new environment. Just like the frag you mail ordered and it turned brown for a few weeks. Do you panic? No....you know it will turn exactly as pictured on the site!!

As far as overdosing, no way. Not anymore than someone dumping a few random shots of vodka into a 90 gallon tank. Bottom line, it is a matter of food and equalization with the amount of bacteria present. There will always be a limiting factor. Whether its nitrate or carbon, phosphate, or even the bacteria themselves.

By the way, I have used about 2000ml of pellets in my 220 tank for several years and have never had the corals bleach. I would consider that quite a bit. I do feed 4-5 cubes of PE a day for my fish, Rotifers and Cyclo twice a week at night. Only when I switched to LED lights did I bleach anything. I'm working on a 6 month study on the LED Lights, their PAR values, Color Spectrum, and Bleaching. The LED lights are extremely powerful and over illumination is very easy. If you tune to your eyes and not a PAR reading that is adjusted for the narrow spectrum, you WILL BLEACH PERIOD.

Its tough sometimes to sort through what you read. I have been at a ton of local peeps tanks and you would be really surprised at the lack of understanding of what the 'goal' in water changes, testing, and for that matter dosing vodka or even pellets. So in the end its easier because:

1) it is something that the average reefer can easily initiate into their filters or sumps....
2) general dosing of beneficial bacterial is not exactly necessary, but helpful....(that's for any tank).
3) you will help way more people than crossing your fingers and hoping they dose right, or for that matter daily.
4) I personally feel bad if someone through misunderstanding hurts their tank. Simpler is way better.

My bet is that your tank is very stable like mine. Double your food input, or better yet triple it. I bet you will get some cyano as the tank re-stabilizes to the new input. I also bet you will have to increase the soluble carbon in a similar ratio. But its not the end of the world if a small patch sprouts up then. It should be expected. But it should also be expected to clear up as the tank stabilizes. And there are things that can speed the process up like bacteria dosing and using a flocculator. Like I said earlier, it is basic Bacteria Management.

Here is a current shot of my tank. Blue LED lights make the picture colors look off (cell phone camera). Almost all the corals are either small frags or small colonies from being re-built about 6 months ago (blue snowflake polyp). Hammer is 7 years old. All Leathers are at least 5 years old and cut regularly. Acro all started from frags years ago. Many are third generation from colonies I broke out twice over. Last Green Stylo I took to the LFS wouldn't fit into a 5 gallon pail. Also couldn't get 6 blue chromis out of it either!! Duncan is 100+ heads and growing quicker by the month. Bought 1 head in 2006 or 7 from Liveaquaria. Same for Orange Ricordia. At least 8 -10 chalice. No cyano for the past 3 months as the tank ages again. Sand bed and sump left alone, so its back up fairly quick. Felt I should at least show what I have....total mixed tank!! I can't remember the last coral I lost. Has to be at least 5-6 years plus. Mainly keeping the colonies to a manageable size and finding outlets for the tons of frags is the real work.

Custom Sump w/Bio Track that goes down the back. First drop is a Cheato tumbler, second chamber is the Bio-Pellets, third chamber is designed to catch any overflowing pellets, and then it ends close to where the skimmer picks up. Pellet chamber has a triangle sponge cut to the bottom, so the pellets tumble individually, but 'churn' as a whole. Pellets from the bottom are tossed up to the back of the pile and then down again. No need to manually stir them, but very easy to get to them if you want to. Flow through the 'Track' is controlled by the weir ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weir ) on the main wall. In the pic it is slightly tilted up to allow enough water through both sections of the sump. This pic is from 11/2011 and it is in the same position today. System has 2 pumps running everything at 115watts total. (1- bubble blaster 5K (55w), 1-water blaster 5k (60w)). Cheato is cut in half every other month. Calcium Reactor is gravity fed through a 'Tube Loop' I created. GFC is powered through the main pump. I have a 50 gallon frag tank on the back wall that is also plumbed in as well..... all on 115 watts!

It can't be any easier.....a few basic supps, a few drops of bacteria or cap a week.....and everything else falls into place. I have a routine, but even if I was to miss a few days, all stays the same.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok, I don't dispute that many folks use pellets just fine, I just still think that vinegar is a better choice, is likely cheaper, and is very easy, if not easier than pellets.

 

[thereefranch]

You totally missed the point....

I respect what works for you and what you do to maintain a healthy and thriving aquarium. I am not trying to push pellets on you. I have no issues what so ever with soluble carbon dosing and its results. Did it for years....

Where I try to hold my advice that I give people is in the 'everyone can do it' attitude. I have done both (soluble and pellets) for extended periods of time. The pellets are without a doubt easier for 'anyone to do'.

Here is my point:
Go back to the original post and count how many times the thread moved forward until the author (under dialogue with you) ended up saying this -

""Thanks, I dosed organic carbon last night, both in the form of vodka and solid carbohydrates. But I think I overdid it. "

That would be the third post. I'm confused as to how you think this is 'Easier'. He didn't make it through step #1 and had a problem. I assure you that if he went and spent $20 on pellets and a $7 bottle of Bact, he would have been off and running. So $27 in my book is really inexpensive to complete the nitrogen cycle. That's slightly less than what I go through per year for my 220. Chump change for a reef tank.

How would you have felt if he dumped a ton in and really reaked havok? How is his tank today? Undoubtedly, it is not as stable as before he dosed soluble carbon, carbohydrates and then in the end added 'Bacon"!!! Thats nuts! A tank fluctuating disaster that will take time to correct.

Even through the years of soluble carbon dosing myself, I found it hard for many people to keep up with on a regular basis. Life gets in the way, thats a fact. Water changes get moved another day, the top off is squeeling because its low, etc. You can show them ultra colorful corals when brown is the norm, but you can't expect everyone to have the same level of passion and thus do what you do. In reality, most people need the simplest thing....plug and play (self included). Soluble dosing is not necessarily plug and play. Pellets are. So even if I was still to this day dosing soluble carbon, my advice to anyone asking about beginning nitrate reduction would start with pellets. Limit the liabilities. Get them into a 'plug and play' set-up, build upon their understanding of the principles, trend them toward success, and then you may find that they can dose soluble carbon adequately. Maybe even imploy advanced techniques. But the LIFE thing still gets in the way and has to be considered. And you best be offering advice that you have tried yourself, not heresay.

Final thoughts: I switched to pellets to give them a try from soluble carbon. I did it because that 'Life' thing happens and I like technology. I wanted to see for myself if they work. The principle and plastic technology is sound. I don't play chemist in the least bit, and they just run. At the end of the day, they work very well, and made my reef life one slice easier. Thats a real world comparison. The (nr) bacteria dosing has been around for a while. I have used it on a variety of tanks including my sisters which literally 'grew' cyano. After I got her to dose regularily, it helped immensly. Still didn't cure it because she was horrible about the skimmer and fed a ton, but a remarkable difference non the less. This was before pellets. Again, real world comparison. These two products have the power to advance the average reef tank into a TOM here on RC. And yet, there are affluent members of the reef community which fail to see the immense benefits to the average tank and moreover the average reefers 'life gets in the way' scenario. Instead, advice gets dosed out at some Phd level, and quite frankly not everyone has one. The Pellets and Bact7 fit into Reef 101, not Water Chemistry 302........thats the true benefit.

I apologize to anyone that I might offend if I come across as 'Pompous'. I am a classic case where boy met flame angel in youth, teenager had small fowlr tank, now at 40+ I have been around for the 'meat' of the evolution of reef keeping. It frustrates me to see how complex sometimes the forums make the general hobby. When in reality it is quite easy if the aquariest starts off with good initial principles and builds on them. Having said that, most forums are used to help resolve 'problems', so to many people using RC, you have to ask.....How easy is it really for the average Reefer? There is no shame in ignorance. Beginning reefers and even mid advanced reefers should not feel put down in the least bit when someone with many years of experience helps with advice. Advanced reefers like Randy are a valuable asset in this process. They really shape the hobby. I only chimed in on this because Mxx had issues at step 1 that could have been avoided and I'm hoping that Randy sees how certain individual practices may not be for everyone ( or maybe to start with). Or at least in this case, the pellets are far less liable as advice...maybe look at them as a stepping stone to the soluble carbon.

If a guy crashes his tank from my advice, my wife will put me on suicide watch! :hmm3: I'm primarily a 'lurker'. I only chime in when I have actual 'Real World' experience with the topic and can offer help if it already wasn't dispensed. I can speculate like the best, but find it comes back and bites me, so I stick with what I have actually done and personal results. My local reefer friends always push me to write more threads and such....... but that LIFE THING gets me too and I have a hard time peeling my face off the front of my tank!:spin2:

 

[ivans75]

I must agree with you reefranch, many reefers, including advance reefers often listen to hearsay, and doesnt wanna spend time in learning from the best possible evidence.

I am very interested with your point on bleach corals. I need to learn what really makes them bleach. Like you, I do suspect light plays a major role.

My LPS treatment / hospital tank dimension is 160x50 w x 35 h. The actual water level is only 30 cm.

I am hanging 1 150 watt MH light 14000 k around 1 meter above this tank.

This tank is a running a zeo sytem (with the zeolite and other basic 4) and I mainly treat doughnut corals.

What confuse me is that many sick doughnut corals that i put in this tank can get their colors back but some don't. Why is that? The ones that don't get their color back usually get better in my other display tank that only has 6 T5s (all actinic blue). This tank is 50 cm high.

The tank is LNS, I dose pohls and amino acid half the dose specified.

I don't have a PAR test and I dont think I can afford it. Is there anyway to determine the best possible height of MH light on a specific height of tank?
Thanks in advance

 

[Mxx]

Thanks, I dosed organic carbon last night, both in the form of vodka and solid carbohydrates. But I think I overdid it. I wouldn't say it caused the system to crash, but there subtle signs of a hangover today, including some cloudiness. I followed that up by dosing nitrates in bacon form, to see if that would help to break down the excess of ethanol as well, but don't have a test kit to check whether this worked. Clearly I'd better use much smaller quantities if I'm gong to be adding it to my aquarium instead...

Wow, sounds like I really need to clarify that statement!

I was speaking about my Friday night, where I went out, had quite a few drinks and late-night junk food, and then cooked bacon for breakfast!

(Hence the "I'd better use much smaller quantities if I'm gong to be adding it to my aquarium instead... "

Yes, kind of a subtle in terms of humour and perhaps easily missed, but which I personally found a bit amusingly coincidental, in the context of having just been discussing carbon dosing here as well...

So I hope there weren't too many misunderstandings there! And apologies if there was confusion from me getting side-tracked into hijacking my own thread in talking about my social life...

As for my own tank, I now have a dropper bottle with the white vinegar I had around the house already, so I'm starting very gradually to try that out, but will look into the pellet forms subsequently.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You totally missed the point....

I believe I understood your point. I just disagree.

There are many folks with pellet problems and many that have given up due to them. There are lengthy threads on that topic.

I agree that many folks also like them, but that does not make them easier or better than vinegar dosing (IMO).

 

[thereefranch]

No worries Mxx. This morning an old buddy called me totally misreading as well. We had a 15 minute conversation about 'Bacon'. Got off the phone perplexed.

Hour later one of my employees came to work and had read the post. I got him into the hobby and we talked 'Bacon'. Walked away perplexed.

About an hour later, my original friend called me back and had realized what had happened. He razed me for a good 15 minutes, I was laughing so hard I was in tears. We ended up talking about teaching peeps years ago about vodka dosing. Like when the info first started to circulate. It brought back memories of failed attempts and what people had done. Crazy things that make 'Bacon' look like a good additive. I have seen a bacteria bloom where it was so thick you couldn't see through it. Could have served it as soup. My sister back then thought a good ole' shot a night was good enough because she had sucked the pipette I gave her in the sweeper. Said it was just one night....right! So we ditched that for her and I put a 5"+ sandbed in it which led to the best success for her.

But anyway, really I have humility........to show it, I plan on following your lead this next friday night! Top shelf, fajitas, and I'll be darn sure to have some 'Bacon' in the morning!!!

 

[thereefranch]

I must agree with you reefranch, many reefers, including advance reefers often listen to hearsay, and doesnt wanna spend time in learning from the best possible evidence.

I will only tell you what I have actually done. "IME" is what I can only trust to relay to other reefers and feel confident that I'm giving sound advice. Reef systems are very complex and the many combination of components and husbandry techniques make it very difficult to measure tank to tank. I have had a lot of time to try a bunch of the techniques that have evolved us to here. (pre-skimmer, plenum, DSB, bare, Fowlr, softies only, no sump, w/sump, w/refug, toxifillia, ozone, gotta stop because I see years of dollar signs!!)

Where I am is the idea of collecting data from categorized tanks. If you have a DSB, then fill out a form and be truthful. Compare that with hundreds of other tanks that are DSB and look for common denomiators. Then a ligitimate list could be made to help the reefer have better success with their set-up.

Some people don't like the TOM, I do. Its the closest thing to a 'form'. I comb through any magazine looking for pictures of thriving reefs. Coral magazine has them. Most local forums have them. So I love reading about them and analyzing the information they present. Often, I have to really disect a picture for equipment or other subtle signs that may clue me in to their husbandry if they don't list it. I'm constantly looking at the sum of all the components and comparing them to others. There are very 'real' common denominators that apply to all systems and then a smaller set for each specialized set-up.

I obviously have success with the pellets. Randy obviously has success with vinegar. Our systems are different, but we achieve spectacular results. So as a baseline, one could presume both work. The real question is why others, doing the same, are not. The answer is in the 'success common denominators'. The people who have achieved the highest success need the most weight in what they do and what systems and parameters they have. Thats 'real life' information and would really move us forward. That way no matter what system you want to do, you at least have a baseline to start that is a culmination of success, not heresay.

 

[ivans75]

cyano is not a big deal imo, it does not affect the health of corals. I am using biopellet in fluidizer and i got cyano. At first I believed that the bp cause the cyano to grow but then again I think it's a sum of many factors. I do dose liquid food, amino acids both commercially made and DIY. So it could be from those factors. Cyano come and go. The problem with cyano is that when you have a sick coral with its skeleton protruding, the cyano will quickly cover the protruding skeleton. And it will become disaster for the coral. It doesnt affect healthy corals.

I am trying pineaple juice at the moment, it has sugar and acid as carbon source as well as aspartic and amino content. I am quite happy with the result.

The problem with pineaple juice, (fresh) is that u dont want the residue to enter your tank as it will become cyano food once it touch the bottom.

 

[wayne in norway]

I would challenge you on that assertion - cyano on a sandbed is not a calamity usually, but blobs of it starting to appear here, there and everywhere, even healthy corals is more than tiresome.

I have recently gone back from pellets to liquid carbon. I previously believed that using solid carbon would keep the bacteria in the reactor, but to stop clumping of the pellets I needed to increase the flow rate and I started getting cyano all over the place in my other wise healthy tank. After moving back to liquid carbon after a few weeks the cyano has subsided substantially. I believe small particles of carbon were getting into the display, and that the plastic used was best utilised by cyano.

With the attention needed to prevent clumping I also found these weren't as low maintenance as I'd hoped. While some people certainly get good results (I persisted for a year) I would use them with caution, and assess their effects objectively (like any other product)