Does hypo not work?

nothingfishy

New member
My 155 fish only has ich again. Added some established fish, suppose they were carriers.

I have tried cupramine in the past, but want to go a different route.

Has hypo been debunked? Old articles say it works, newer stuff calls it outdated.

170 total gallons, ro unit is plumbed into tank for top off, I could hold 1.009 no problem.

Does it work at 1.009? Will it kill my bacteria (bio filter) I don't care about pods worms etx, there is no coral in my tank not is there inverts.

Would love to setup hospital tank, but I might as well get a divorce attorney as well.
 
It will work IF and only IF you never let the salinity raise not even .001 otherwise the count on hypo starts over. Couple that with the stress of lowering salinity (not as stressful) and then having to raise it up (much more stressful) after treatment is complete. You also have ph swings that some fish wont mind but other can really not take a liking to. With TTM, Choroquine phosphate and Cupramine out there hypo is at the bottom of the list for sure and most often not done correctly. My preference on treatment methods was in the order i listed them. Hypo is 1.008 im pretty sure but might be wrong because i refuse to use it
 
It will work IF and only IF you never let the salinity raise not even .001 otherwise the count on hypo starts over. Couple that with the stress of lowering salinity (not as stressful) and then having to raise it up (much more stressful) after treatment is complete. You also have ph swings that some fish wont mind but other can really not take a liking to. With TTM, Choroquine phosphate and Cupramine out there hypo is at the bottom of the list for sure and most often not done correctly. My preference on treatment methods was in the order i listed them. Hypo is 1.008 im pretty sure but might be wrong because i refuse to use it

I agree. The vast majority of folks have execution errors be it managing salinity or equipment errors in measuring salinity. Tank transfer is clearly number one, cupramine and chloroquine phosphate both work well.
 
Tank transferring 14 decent size fish prob is not in the cards.

Where could I acquire chloroquine phos? Is that known to be safe in fish only as far as bio filter is concerned? M tank doesn't have any algae visible to the eye, I also run a uv.

Lastly, I have a refractometer that is about a year old. I calibrate it to 35 ppt with solution.

My sump level never changes, as the r o unit is Plummed to the tank.

I have no doubt I could keep 1.008.my concern is loss is bio filter( again no algae to die off really in this tank) and lastly if it works if you keep salinity at the right mark. Some have made it seem as if it is a myth.

Finally, if it doesn't harm bio filter, and I am not looking to revisit cupramine path, and fish can handle that low of salinity, what do I really have to lose?

I have seen even bob fenner is opposed to it, without seemingly having a reason. ( only have read ich have become resistent to it)
 
Tank transferring 14 decent size fish prob is not in the cards.

Where could I acquire chloroquine phos? Is that known to be safe in fish only as far as bio filter is concerned? M tank doesn't have any algae visible to the eye, I also run a uv.

Lastly, I have a refractometer that is about a year old. I calibrate it to 35 ppt with solution.

My sump level never changes, as the r o unit is Plummed to the tank.

I have no doubt I could keep 1.008.my concern is loss is bio filter( again no algae to die off really in this tank) and lastly if it works if you keep salinity at the right mark. Some have made it seem as if it is a myth.

Finally, if it doesn't harm bio filter, and I am not looking to revisit cupramine path, and fish can handle that low of salinity, what do I really have to lose?

I have seen even bob fenner is opposed to it, without seemingly having a reason. ( only have read ich have become resistent to it)
Sometimes I notice very cloudy water when I start raising salinity after 4-5 weeks of hypo. That indicates a bacteria bloom which requires addition of oxygen through a pump in my QT. So yes hypo does have effects on bio filter. However, with weekly water changes none of my fish look uncomfortable during and after hypo treatment. If you are worried about bio filter you can always add Dr. Tims beneficial bacteria. I use it all the time in my QT especially if it's been fish less for a long time.
 
Tank transferring 14 decent size fish prob is not in the cards.

Where could I acquire chloroquine phos? Is that known to be safe in fish only as far as bio filter is concerned? M tank doesn't have any algae visible to the eye, I also run a uv.

Lastly, I have a refractometer that is about a year old. I calibrate it to 35 ppt with solution.

My sump level never changes, as the r o unit is Plummed to the tank.

I have no doubt I could keep 1.008.my concern is loss is bio filter( again no algae to die off really in this tank) and lastly if it works if you keep salinity at the right mark. Some have made it seem as if it is a myth.

Finally, if it doesn't harm bio filter, and I am not looking to revisit cupramine path, and fish can handle that low of salinity, what do I really have to lose?

I have seen even bob fenner is opposed to it, without seemingly having a reason. ( only have read ich have become resistent to it)

As to where to get CP. New Life Spectrum makes ich shield as it's called in powder form. Not very expensive and the stuff doesn't have fillers. I spoke with the owner of NLS about this product for 45 mins on the phone so I have no doubt this is by dlfar the best option for CP even off we the pills from the pharmacy. I haven't been able to get it in powder form from the pharmacy near me
 
Has hypo been debunked? Old articles say it works, newer stuff calls it outdated.
First, as a newbie, I want to thank everyone here first for their great advice as I've jumped into this hobby over the past year. I consider myself a voracious consumer of information, but the more I get into this hobby the more I realize what I don't know! I read lots of stuff, and I usually find an answer to my question, so I feel no need to post. The stickies are a wonderful thing!

However, I thought I would chime in about what appears to be facts, but also some myths about hypo, based on what I have learned over the past year or so. I don't have access to the full research, but I think I have a grasp on what is known (through peer reviewed science) as posted by many of our experts here. As background, I believe I have successfully used hypo as ich treatment, having had a severe outbreak that killed over half my livestock, and post-treatment have not seen any signs of ich. Of course, I can't be 100% sure it is gone, but one of my survivors is a blue hippo tang, often referred to as an "œich magnet". If I still had ich, my assumption is I would see some type of symptom. Of course, I may be in the camp (not as a volunteer!) of those who claim to successfully manage ich and don't understand the need to eradicate it from an aquarium.

1. There is a scientific basis for hypo being an effective treatment. However, in one instance, research discovered a particular strain of ich (I believe off the coast of Taiwan) that was resistant to hypo. Is this strain present in your current outbreak? Probably impossible to determine, but I would think highly unlikely. Are there other strains immune to hypo? Maybe.

2. Except for the strain mentioned above, I believe all failures using hypo to treat ich are anecdotal. One may guess why it didn't work, but I don't believe there are any fully researched reasons. In my opinion, lack of proper execution is probably more the cause than having a strain that is hypo resistant.

3. Many recommendations state how critical and difficult it is to hold the salinity at the therapeutic concentration, and the need for an ATO during hypo treatment. The fact (mathematically based) is this shouldn't be a concern under normal conditions unless you have constant extreme water loss from evaporation. The smaller a system (and I'm talking nano) the harder it is to regulate. You state you have 170 gallons in your system. Let's be ultra conservative and says your LR, equipment, etc. reduces this to 100 gallons actual water. Given the resolution of your refractometer (to the third decimal place), you would have to lose over 5 gallons of water before your reading went from 1.009 to 1.010, detecting a change in measured salinity! (If anyone wants details on how I mathematically arrived at this, I can provide the details). Unless you are losing this much water per day (4-5 gallons), it should be fairly easy to hold at the therapeutic salinity levels.

4. It has been stated that if your salinity does increase by only 0.001 you must restart the clock. I don't believe the research did a series of tests (i.e. at 1.008, 1.009, 1.010, 1.011, etc.) and found a big difference between 1.009 and 1.010. If my assumption is wrong, please correct me. The ich parasite, although a relatively lowly organism, is still a very complex creature. I don't think its reaction to such small differences would be significant. If I were to predict what research would show, an outcome is more likely be something like 99.20% don't survive at 1.010, and 99.99% don't survive 1.009, rather than only 5% are killed at 1.010 versus the 99.99% at 1.009.

5. When I did hypo, I was surprised to note a single salt crystal sign of ich on a fish several weeks after I started hypo. Bottom line is don't start the 72 day clock until after the last symptom is gone. The first day you reach the therapeutic level is not necessarily when you start counting. I recommend you be very observant of each fish, looking for the slightest symptom of infection. I conjecture this may one of the reasons why hypo treatment failed.

6. Only conjecture on my part, but when an ich cyst hatches, I don't think the theront instantly "˜explodes' under hypo conditions. It may be milliseconds, seconds, or even minutes. If a host is right there and it can attach immediately, then the parasite may survive. The last fish I saw in my tank with ich symptoms was a green chromis that would sleep deep in the chambers of my LR. My ich infection was severe enough that I probably had enough cysts producing enough theronts that I need a couple of cycles to wipe them out until all the theronts would die before finding a host.

7. When I was lowering my salinity, I noticed in the beginning it would bounce back up (by 0.001) after 24 hours. I believe this was because it took a while for the water trapped between sand molecules in my sand bed to come to equilibrium with the rest of the water in the tank. As this high salinity water mixed in, it would raise the average salinity of the system. I would think the same is true for the saltwater within the pore spaces of the living rock. I would also guess that it would take far longer for this water to equilibrate with the surrounding water. Could it take days or weeks? I don't know. I bring this point up, because you measure salinity in the main body of water. Could the local salinity (i.e. where the ich cyst is hatching and the host is present) be different and take longer to come to the same level as the main water being measured? I think possibly, and maybe why the chromis had ich symptoms three weeks after hypo started, as this indicated the theront had survived and was able to attach to a host.

8. The 72 day treatment period is based on a study that showed that even though the majority of cysts release after 4 to 8 days, the observed range was 3 to 72 days. Could it be longer? Sure, given a large enough number of cysts, statistically it could happen, but the risk it probably low. Just like my discussion on salinity, day 72 is not a magic number. The statistics between 71 and 72 (or 73) are probably pretty small. It is not as if the tomont sets an alarm clock for 71 days, and bang, you nail it by going 72. For example, I think we have far more research on the human gestation period. We should be able to predict a due date down to the hour, maybe even the minute. Speaking from experience, I'm glad I didn't fill in my calendar with other activities on the day before or day after my baby's due date! (In reality, my first child was born 2 weeks overdue.)

Bottom line is that hypo seems to be discounted as a treatment, but failure seems to anecdotal, with exact causes unknown. Success can't be guaranteed, but should be considered as an option. It all comes down to potential risk and reward. If I am wrong, or anyone disagrees with what I have summarized above, I welcome the feedback, as I do not want to be distributing wrong advice.
 
Standard Error of the mean. All measuring equipment produces a measurement +/- the standard error of the mean. Depending on the quality of the instrument, this number may be very small and for very expensive equipment, very, very small. Depending on how you calibrate an instrument, the standard error of the mean may change.
 
Bottom line is that hypo seems to be discounted as a treatment, but failure seems to anecdotal, with exact causes unknown.

That is correct. There may be operator error and/or equipment error and rarely if ever, do we know which occurred if any. There may also be life cycle variance such that a longer period of contact to hyposaline conditions is required. All of those are why I recommend Tank transfer over hyposalinity.
 
That is correct. There may be operator error and/or equipment error and rarely if ever, do we know which occurred if any. There may also be life cycle variance such that a longer period of contact to hyposaline conditions is required. All of those are why I recommend Tank transfer over hyposalinity.

Absolutely no disagreement. I am convinced on TTM, and going forward the only technique I will use now that I have an ich free DT. It appears the OP is in the same position I was previously in, having not started out doing TTM, and infecting their main DT. For existing contaminated systems, even though TTM is preferred, it has logistics issues in this situation (large number of fish, required fallow period) that hypo is an easier to implement, possibly effective solution, which was the reason I made my post.

I'm jealous of many of the setups I see here. Call it the human factor, but one reason I chose hypo on my single new tank prominently setup in my living room was I didn't want to handle the "nice aquarium, but where are the fish?" questions from visitors for a couple of months!
 
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