leviburns89
New member
Ich or cryptocaryon, is present in all bodies of water. Your fish's ability to fend off harmful amounts of the parasite by having a strong immune system, is the only defense against it.
Does this picture look like Ich?
- Thread starter taylortot
- Start date
CStrickland
New member
This thread is full of speculation, and unsupported opinion repeated as fact.
I hope that any new reefers searching for ich treatment and prevention protocols who wind up in here are smart enough to dig a little deeper on the subject before proceeding with any course of action. A good place to start are the ich threads in the "setting up" sticky, and the stickies in the marine fish diseases subforum.
I hope that any new reefers searching for ich treatment and prevention protocols who wind up in here are smart enough to dig a little deeper on the subject before proceeding with any course of action. A good place to start are the ich threads in the "setting up" sticky, and the stickies in the marine fish diseases subforum.
leviburns89
New member
Lol, that's what this hobby is. Even the scientific studies that are done aren't replicated, so it's still only anecdotal.
For example, the 90 clownfish that were used in the garlic study,, I'm willing to bet money that all 90 fish came from the same location, and all used the same water supply. So any number of variables have to be considered in his conclusion that garlic kills fish
sde1500
Active member
Honestly do you have any data to back that up? Most people here advocate QT to prevent ich, what data do you have that proves everyone here wrong?
leviburns89
New member
I never said anyone was wrong, I was just stating my opinion. I actually value everyone's opinion because it give variable reference points for people to make educated decisions on vs just taking one persons advice.
But since you asked,,
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2160&aid=2420
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocaryon
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/m/#publication?id=FA164
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/
QT works very well, but as I stated earlier, becomes impractical with larger stocking. Several of the authors in the links I've posted say water changes are their preferred first course of action.
Only after that proves insignificant, will a hospital tank be implemented, followed up with copper and formalin, and after that, hyposalinity
But since you asked,,
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2160&aid=2420
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocaryon
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/m/#publication?id=FA164
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/
QT works very well, but as I stated earlier, becomes impractical with larger stocking. Several of the authors in the links I've posted say water changes are their preferred first course of action.
Only after that proves insignificant, will a hospital tank be implemented, followed up with copper and formalin, and after that, hyposalinity
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mr.feebles
Member
i'm saying that w/ a good varied diet, NO supplementation is ever necessary. EVAR.
how much vitamin 'a' does a goby need in a day? an imperator angel? do they need the same? what about absorption rates? can you quote any study that establishes what a fish's daily requirements are?
vitamin additives are hokum, just like garlic
mr.feebles
Member
please list the 'micronutrients' garlic would provide a fish thatwould be of any benefit.
please list any 'pest' that garlic's been *proven* to affect, that are found in sw.
you're simply making blanket statements of opinion that have absolutely NO basis in reality. none. just a repeat of a hobbyist repeating another ad infinitum from the 1st hobbyist who made the silly claims. again, NONE of which have real backing, aside from anecdote and mis-conclusions.
this is a product driven industry-i wouldn't believe most things you find printed on some useless bottle of what's mostly water to begin with, heh.
i'll wait for those lists
leviburns89
New member
Gonna be waiting a while there bud,,
I'm checking out of this thread.
Just getting a rebuttal of "a hobbyist repeating another hobbyist".
Which in reality is all there is in this hobby. Zero double blind studies, zero recreations of specific events, just basic scientific theory that is taken as fact, and never actually proven, and that's a fact.
Peace, love, and chicken grease.
Happy reefing, good luck with the ich problem OP
I'm checking out of this thread.
Just getting a rebuttal of "a hobbyist repeating another hobbyist".
Which in reality is all there is in this hobby. Zero double blind studies, zero recreations of specific events, just basic scientific theory that is taken as fact, and never actually proven, and that's a fact.
Peace, love, and chicken grease.
Happy reefing, good luck with the ich problem OP
CStrickland
New member
Levi, the issue with a lot of the stuff that you are reading is that it's kind of old news. You'll notice that a lot of the source material for the articles is more than ten years old. Back then, copper, hypo, and luck were the only methods available and there wasn't a feasible way to keep ich out of a tank. That's not necessarily the case anymore. You are right that there aren't double blinds for this stuff, but the forum provides a good snap shot of trends in success for different methods. Remember too that there's no double blinds for garlic either, but companies make a lot of $ selling garlicichblasterexxxtreme. There's no $ in ttm.
In the last few years, ttm has been used broadly and with enough success that many experienced reefers are confident in recommending it as a "best practice" for ich removal from a sick fish. This is crucial for a new tank, since if the parasite is never introduced, it will not spontaneously appear. Once the tank is infected it's a much bigger challenge to eradicate because of how long some stages can live in the rocks.
As opposed to in the bad old days, it's no longer true that every tank has ich. Sk8r had a terrible crash a month or so ago and her temp plummeted for several days. If her tank weren't ich free her fish would certainly be symptomatic. They weren't.
This forum in particular has been a pioneer in ich prevention. You're talking to some of the reefers that discovered, tested, and promoted ttm. They've heard your arguments before. It is frustrating for them to still be hearing the same old tired, disproven, old wives tales about garlic. This is especially troubling in the new to the hobby forum because of how much better things go when noobs adopt a rigorous qt from the jump. To put yourself in their shoes, imagine you discovered the smallpox vaccine and someone who took up immunology last month was telling everyone not to get it because it causes autism and if they just eat organic they won't get sick.
I don't actually try to keep ich out of my tank, personal choice. But those are the reasons why I wouldn't recommend lazy qt to a new reefer, if you're still reading
In the last few years, ttm has been used broadly and with enough success that many experienced reefers are confident in recommending it as a "best practice" for ich removal from a sick fish. This is crucial for a new tank, since if the parasite is never introduced, it will not spontaneously appear. Once the tank is infected it's a much bigger challenge to eradicate because of how long some stages can live in the rocks.
As opposed to in the bad old days, it's no longer true that every tank has ich. Sk8r had a terrible crash a month or so ago and her temp plummeted for several days. If her tank weren't ich free her fish would certainly be symptomatic. They weren't.
This forum in particular has been a pioneer in ich prevention. You're talking to some of the reefers that discovered, tested, and promoted ttm. They've heard your arguments before. It is frustrating for them to still be hearing the same old tired, disproven, old wives tales about garlic. This is especially troubling in the new to the hobby forum because of how much better things go when noobs adopt a rigorous qt from the jump. To put yourself in their shoes, imagine you discovered the smallpox vaccine and someone who took up immunology last month was telling everyone not to get it because it causes autism and if they just eat organic they won't get sick.
I don't actually try to keep ich out of my tank, personal choice. But those are the reasons why I wouldn't recommend lazy qt to a new reefer, if you're still reading
jminick2
New member
wrong
mr.feebles
Member
to be clear, leviburns89, i'm not trying to 'attack' you personally. nor do i think you have any ill or 'nefarious' motives when you give your advice. i'm sure you mean well and have good intentions
but 'the road to hell is paved w/ good intentions'
here's a good illustrative example of what happens all too often in this hobby (and having sold my 1st fish to folks circa '77, i feel i'm more than qualified to opine, heh).
take multivitamins for people.
there is absolutely NO non vitamin industry funded test, or scientific evidence to suggest that taking a multivitamin will lead you to a longer, or healthier, life.
NONE. nada. zilch. zippo. you can go look all of this up on the NIH websites. furthermore, if you don't take a multivitamin and eat a varied diet, you will more than likely NOT suffer from any vitamin based deficiencies. and just because you swallow a pill containing a vitamin, like the 'b' complex, no guarantee you'll absorb the full amounts of whatever's in that pill.
yet millions of westerners believe that taking a vitamin pill will make them healthier.
why?
ADVERTISING. vitamins are advertised on tv countless x/day. and the commercials are very 'slick' and highly manipulative, as all commercials are, hehe.
in this hobby the problem is higher by an order of magnitude. MOST of all the misconceptions, false info, and propagation of terrible husbandry advice has been caused by the very companies trying to sell you 'garlich guard', or 'purple up', or countless other products.
take the company i'll call 'can't marine'. they market DOZENS of reef tank supplements, most claiming to do awesome things to your tank.
do you really think you'll get an awesome tank by pouring 20 different bottles of crap into it regularly?
be skeptical, and take NO ONE's advice at face value-you owe the life forms who are in your care more than that only do what you can verify, or find is a consensus among those w/ experience of more than 5 yrs, based on REPEATABLE results when testing the method, and who have no vested interest in your wallet
alot of 'advice' comes from 'bandwagon jumping' in this hobby (and many others, i'm sure). don't jump on the wagon before checking the ticket
no hard feelings, and nothing personal (as was never meant to be implied, if only by 'tone').
but 'the road to hell is paved w/ good intentions'
here's a good illustrative example of what happens all too often in this hobby (and having sold my 1st fish to folks circa '77, i feel i'm more than qualified to opine, heh).
take multivitamins for people.
there is absolutely NO non vitamin industry funded test, or scientific evidence to suggest that taking a multivitamin will lead you to a longer, or healthier, life.
NONE. nada. zilch. zippo. you can go look all of this up on the NIH websites. furthermore, if you don't take a multivitamin and eat a varied diet, you will more than likely NOT suffer from any vitamin based deficiencies. and just because you swallow a pill containing a vitamin, like the 'b' complex, no guarantee you'll absorb the full amounts of whatever's in that pill.
yet millions of westerners believe that taking a vitamin pill will make them healthier.
why?
ADVERTISING. vitamins are advertised on tv countless x/day. and the commercials are very 'slick' and highly manipulative, as all commercials are, hehe.
in this hobby the problem is higher by an order of magnitude. MOST of all the misconceptions, false info, and propagation of terrible husbandry advice has been caused by the very companies trying to sell you 'garlich guard', or 'purple up', or countless other products.
take the company i'll call 'can't marine'. they market DOZENS of reef tank supplements, most claiming to do awesome things to your tank.
do you really think you'll get an awesome tank by pouring 20 different bottles of crap into it regularly?
be skeptical, and take NO ONE's advice at face value-you owe the life forms who are in your care more than that
only do what you can verify, or find is a consensus among those w/ experience of more than 5 yrs, based on REPEATABLE results when testing the method, and who have no vested interest in your wallet alot of 'advice' comes from 'bandwagon jumping' in this hobby (and many others, i'm sure). don't jump on the wagon before checking the ticket
no hard feelings, and nothing personal (as was never meant to be implied, if only by 'tone').
leviburns89
New member
Thank you Cstrickland for approaching me with respect, and not acting like another "keyboard gangster".
You provided useful insight, instead of useless banter.
I was merely trying to share what I have read from published studies by groups of dozens of scientists that have dedicated their entire lives to try and understand the oceans and their findings.
My bad if everything written pre-2006 should be disregarded.
I guess the real issue, is true scientific research in the last 10 years has completely given up on saltwater, and the relation to our hobby.
But I must plug once more and say TTM isn't practical with a fully stocked tank.
Most hobbyists overstock tanks, and the average tank size reefers go for, of 120g, can have as many as 20-30 fish. This means 20 QT's??? How can that possibly be a solution?
If you stick them all into 1 or 2 clean QT, the parasite will simply jump hosts until it kills everything.
You provided useful insight, instead of useless banter.
I was merely trying to share what I have read from published studies by groups of dozens of scientists that have dedicated their entire lives to try and understand the oceans and their findings.
My bad if everything written pre-2006 should be disregarded.
I guess the real issue, is true scientific research in the last 10 years has completely given up on saltwater, and the relation to our hobby.
But I must plug once more and say TTM isn't practical with a fully stocked tank.
Most hobbyists overstock tanks, and the average tank size reefers go for, of 120g, can have as many as 20-30 fish. This means 20 QT's??? How can that possibly be a solution?
If you stick them all into 1 or 2 clean QT, the parasite will simply jump hosts until it kills everything.
leviburns89
New member
This is exactly the banter I speak of.
If you can't do what I do, with apparently "wrong" information with decades of research to say otherwise, please just sit back and watch the show.
I don't mind being the show pony, as long as someone learns something in the end.
mr.feebles
Member
'keyboard gangster'. heh.
while i do like the term (humorous), no such thing was intended, as i posted above.
while i do like the term (humorous), no such thing was intended, as i posted above.
jminick2
New member
Does this picture look like Ich?
Feel free to do a simple search I've stated many facts about Ich through out these forums. I'm thinking you don't know where the search button is though. With all the bad information you are spreading.
You say all everyone is doing is repeating each other so you come in and say the opposite and I guess that makes you right???? Get outta here, this is a place where people come for good info not garbage.
Feel free to do a simple search I've stated many facts about Ich through out these forums. I'm thinking you don't know where the search button is though. With all the bad information you are spreading.
You say all everyone is doing is repeating each other so you come in and say the opposite and I guess that makes you right???? Get outta here, this is a place where people come for good info not garbage.
leviburns89
New member
And to be fare mr.feebles, there is plenty of research to promote the use of a multivitamin in the human body. The medical and insurance industry has monopolized the argument against that tho. Keep you coming back for those oxys.
But I won't open that can of worms, the Gerson family cracked that one wide open in the 30's, and I personally have had deadly ailments cured holistically to prove their point.
But I DO respect your opinion, and will use it accordingly in the future on my posts.
But I won't open that can of worms, the Gerson family cracked that one wide open in the 30's, and I personally have had deadly ailments cured holistically to prove their point.
But I DO respect your opinion, and will use it accordingly in the future on my posts.
leviburns89
New member
Lol, just lol
jminick2
New member
mr.feebles
Member
anyone interested in how crypto (ich) actually lives and works, should read this:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
one of the better treatises on the subject at hand
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
one of the better treatises on the subject at hand
