Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate

[tmz]

Yep, Its a 16 gallon conical tank I got from an online source, all overflow water enters at the middle and is directed to the side, and then overflows out through a pipe in the side. In the below pic it all went to the skimmer, but that turned out to be too efficient, so there is a refugia chamber between the conical tank and the sump now, and I actively pull some of that water to the skimmer now. The Refugia chamber and sump are connected near the top, so whatever doesn't go to the skimmer overflows to the sump and is returned to the tank.

Wow. I love that. Nice. Do you have a link to a vendor.

Thanks

 

[tmz]

Tom,
I can not agee with your link. Nitrogen is 13% and potassium is 60%.
Patrick

No, the manufacturer's data you listed says only :0.13% nitrogen;not 13%, and 0.60% potassium;not 60%. Decimals can be confusing sometimes .

The data you listed more or less agrees with the University link description as "insignificant".. I'm sure you can find other links with more specificity if if you don't like that one.

 

[mhucasey]

I got the settling tank from Agrimart, but lots of vendors carry them.
15 Gallon Full Drain Inductor Tank (INFD15-19) INFD15-19 $65.00 USD

The tank does a good job of settling out the heavy stuff, the lighter stuff goes out the outlet. The outlet is pointed up and has a strainer on it, and I affixed a paddle to the outlet line to direct the floating stuff from the edges to the strainer.

Every week or so I bleed off the sludge that collects at the bottom, it is black and smells like a sewer, but it eliminates the need for using filter socks. The conical tank is plumbed with bypass line so it can be isolated, and then I can drain it down and replace with fresh makeup water if I am doing a water change, though I haven't done a water change since early april.

I have the water chemistry down to a pretty simple routine, just making up a DIY 2-part, and adding a few drops iron citrate and lugols every three days or so, magnesium chloride from time to time, and a bit of Strontium is added to the CaCL part of the 2-part. I add calcium Nitrate(1/8tsp) about every 4 days to keep the nitrate between 2 and 3 ppm. Frankly, the corals have never looked better....

 

[Subsea]

No, the manufacturer's data you listed says only :0.13% nitrogen;not 13%, and 0.60% potassium;not 60%. Decimals can be confusing sometimes .

The data you listed more or less agrees with the University link description as "insignificant".. I'm sure you can find other links with more specificity if if you don't like that one.

Tom,
I am still scratching my head on this one and yes, I can laugh at myself. Of course, I have ammonia in gallon jugs from Tractor Supply for nitrogen requirements. I also use calcium nitrate, as well as dipotassium phosphate when required.
Prior to the ephifany, I had requested from the manufacture, how could they guarantee no phosphate in their product.
Because I do not do water changes, it is still my source of balancing trace minerals in my reef tanks.
Patrick

PS. I use Miracle Grow in the macro growout system. On a limited basis, I have used it in my reef tanks. At 24% total nitrogen, 20.5 % comes from Urea. Does Urea need to be handled more cautiously than ammonia?

 

[Subsea]

Reefmutt:
That's great idea. I think. A settling tank"¦but I don't get it. Sorry
What are you settling?
Maybe, I could use one. Please explain more about it.

I ask the same question. I will assume that removal of the solids in suspension is desirable and that this eliminates the need for frequent filter sock replacement or service.
I use my mud filter to collect this stuff. It is a hotbed crawling with worms and things. They in term feed the tank with larvae in suspension. For certain my focus is to recycle nutrients through complex food webs. For certain, your tank is gorgeous and mine will not look like yours. I choose laissez faire with appropriate life forms that are compatible.
Patrick

 

[herring_fish]

The problem with anecdotal results is that the specifics are vague. As you can see my P was still high in this photo but my N has never (in more than 5 years of bacterial only control, no algae, no skimming) been high enough to see a difference in the test. I just looked at the rock and the algae screen to tell me what to do.

Reading back through my posts in this thread I noticed that I actually did this in a much more loose and unstructured way than I originally thought. I didn't have time to pay attention to what was going on because I was greatly distracted by issues that were unrelated to the tank.

After dosing for a few days, I got a little bit of brown coating on the rock so I stopped the experiment until I could do a proper test. The critters quickly cleaned up the coating and I forgot about the test all together. Several weeks later, I happened to look into the scrubber. I noticed that the algae was growing in there (long and stringy) and it had been some amount of time but I can't say how long it was from dosing to initial growth.

I tore down the tank there after and am starting a new 180 tall now. For my personal situation, I like my scrubber and will be careful to make sure that I remember that that is my primary nutrient export mechanism and will not lose sight of that. Others might like skimmers, vodka and GFO or whatever and most of them work great but I feel that it is important to remember what your primary is.

If there is a problem or a potential problem, fix or beef up the primary before adding secondary processes that often confuse the situation. Then and only then will I dabble with other methods that can fine tune the system and I will do that CAREFULLY. I don't want to get things out of whack. Otherwise, you are just playing whack a mole.

I may still have lots of P that is stored in the extensive amount of live rock that I have so I may have to dose N for a while to get and stay in balance. Once that phase is over, when I need to rev up my scrubber, I will add something more balanced like "¦perhaps, fish fertilizer. Of course, this last paragraph is advice from a 24 year ATS user only, for ATS users and is NOT appropriate for a skimmer user.

 

[reefmutt]

Herring, would you consider acid washing your old rock to try and remove as much absorbed po4, before using the rock, or are you confident that by simply dosing n as needed, you'll be able to get to the bottom of the p?

 

[tmz]

I will add something more balanced like …perhaps, fish fertilizer. Of course, this last paragraph is advice from a 24 year ATS user only, for ATS users and is NOT appropriate for a skimmer user.

What about for those who use the complimentary benefits of both a skimmer and macro algae? Why exclude skimmer users at all?

 

[Subsea]

Tom,
Is bacteria export the major difference between shimmer export and macroalgae export.
Patrick

 

[herring_fish]

I would consider most anything. I never heard of acid washing rock. Please tell me more.

An ATS is not for everyone. I don't sell them. It is not necessarily the best system to use. I give a little detail on this thread only because you ask. I don't want to hijack the thread or get in an argument over what IS best because the correct answer is different for different people. It just works well for me and I choose it because it lets me leave more food in suspension longer.

That being said, I do think that once the alga is running well, it can handle almost anything that I can throw at it, including P "œleaching(?)" back into the system.

Speaking for all of the time before I ran the bacteria experiment "¦. As a filter feeder/non-photosynthetic coral guy, I have put tons of everything that you can imagine into the tank. I have had some adverse reactions but have never had nutrient issues. The only thing that I am careful of, is to start adding things slowly so that the ATS, and other systems in the tank, can ramp up to meet the challenge.

Part of the ATS paradigm is the generally natural approach. Part of that approach is the active encouragement of the diversity of organisms. That is where I got in trouble. I was trying too hard to grow bacteria, too quickly with too much vodka. I don't export bacteria so it circulate round and around.

Normally, bacteria is a big part of any healthy system (ATS or not) and adding things slowly helps things stay in balance. Usually, if you add things slowly the SYSTEM as a whole will adapt.

 

[tmz]

Just to be clear I think an ats can be useful for exporting inorganic nutrients. I've used them. It does ,however, as does other macro algae produce organic C which can be controlled with GAC and /or skimming . I use both.

Growing heterotrophic bacteria which take up ammonia preferentially to nitrate, with organic carbon dosing may diminish the ammonia, the ammonia oxidizers( the heterotrophic bacteria grow about 5xs as fast asthe chemolithotrophic ammonia oxidizing bacteria) and susequently the nitrate, Maybe , iron and K as well . All of that uptake in excess can adversely effect the algae. Organic carbon dosing can be used in combination with photoautotrophic export ( ie algae) if you can find a balance for your tank and the right type of algae. Dosing NO3 might be useful in some scenarios but not all.,IMO.

 

[tmz]

Tom,
Is bacteria export the major difference between shimmer export and macroalgae export.
Patrick

I don't know if some algae consumes some bacteria or by products from them or not or limits them in anyway in the nutrient competition. Skimming does export some planktonic phase bacteria. Whether that is significant or not is unclear to me as bacteria grow quickly and likely take up the slack for those exported, Most are also primarily benthic.

The major difference in my view is that a skimmer does export organics including some bacteria holding nutrients;algae unless harvested does not, it recycles the nutrients.
The algae also produces organics and exudates , some of which the skimmer exports.
I use: algae ,skimming, gac and orgnaic carbon dosing and consider them complimentary when in balance.
. I think a major benefit of skimming and algae is the CO2 they can remove and the oxygen they can add; via aeration by skimming ;and ,CO2 consumption and O2 production by algae .

 

[herring_fish]

Yea "¦what he said.

I do use carbon. Mr. Sprung visited the old Smithsonian aquarium exhibition that ran on huge ATS's in the early 90's. One of the curators told me that his only major suggestion was too add GAC. If you are using skimmer as your primary then oxygen input is an important side benefit. If you are using a properly designed ATS as your primary oxygen levels are normally kept very near the saturation point. Skimming, as a secondary should not conflict with the ATS and can be used in instead of in addition to carbon.

In an effort not to mechanically filter the water, I put in a bag or an actual sock filled with it, in the water stream and allow the water to pass around it, as opposed to forcing water through it. Some of the water does go through the bag but the large particles and plankton don't get caught by the fabric.
I do also dose iron and iodine. I don't add KNO3 because I just don't know enough about it. Perhaps I should.

 

[Subsea]

Gracilaria Parvispora/Red Ogo/Tang Heaven Red

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I grow Red Ogo for human consumption, I had it analylized by an agricultural lab. I figured it would be a good resource for macro growers to use.

Ward Lab analysis for Red Ogo / Tang Heaven Red / Gravilaria Parvispora

Note: the results are for dry matter. Ogo is 92% water.

N at 2.59 %
P at 0.062 %
K at 13.54 %
Ca at 0.555%
Mg at 1.63%
S at 4.82 %
Zn at 139 ppm
Fe at 107 ppm
Mn at 20 ppm
Cu at 7 ppm

For most hobbiest the main thing to take away is that nitrate to phosphate is in a ratio of 30:1
With respect to potassium, Red Ogo has 6 times as much potassium as nitrogen and 180 times as much phosphate. I am reevaluating my potassium nutrient management.

Tom,
I am interested in any scientific study that documents the amount of oxygen added due to skimming. Considering that surface tension promotes nutrient export at the bubble air interface, imo, this same surface tension interfers with water/air gas exchange. For my money the water/air interface in the display tank is a much bigger player in gas exchange.
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

Macro consume bacteria

Macro consume bacteria

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130523143741.htm

A team of researchers has captured images of green alga consuming bacteria, offering a glimpse at how early organisms dating back more than 1 billion years may have acquired free-living photosynthetic cells. This acquisition is thought to have been a critical first step in the evolution of photosynthetic algae and land plants, which, in turn, contributed to the increase in oxygen levels in Earth's atmosphere and ocean and provided one of the conditions necessary for animal evolution.
In a paper that appears in the June 17 issue of Current Biology and is available online today, researchers identify a mechanism by which a green alga that resembles early ancestors of the group engulfs bacteria, providing conclusive evidence for a process that had been proposed but not definitely shown.
"This behavior had previously been suggested but we had not had clear microscopic evidence until this study," said Eunsoo Kim, assistant curator in the Museum's Division of Invertebrate Zoology and corresponding author on the paper. "These results offer important clues to an evolutionary event that fundamentally changed the trajectory of the evolution of not just photosynthetic algae and land plants, but also animals."
In green algae and land plants, photosynthesis, or the conversion of light into food, is carried out by a specialized cell structure known as a chloroplast. The origin of chloroplast is linked to endosymbiosis, a process in which a single-celled eukaryote -- an organism whose cells contain a nucleus -- captures a free-living photosynthetic cyanobacterium but does not digest it, allowing the photosynthetic cell to eventually evolve into a chloroplast. The specific feeding mechanisms for this process, however, have remained largely unknown until now.
In this study, researchers used transmission electron microscopy and feeding and staining experiments to take conclusive images showing how a basic green alga from the genus Cymbomonas feeds on bacteria. The alga draws bacterial cells into a tubular duct through a mouth-like opening and then transports these food particles into a large, acidic vacuole where digestion takes place. The complexity of this feeding system in photosynthetic modern alga suggests that this bacteria-feeding behavior, and the unique feeding apparatus to support it, descend from colorless ancestors of green algae and land plants and may have played important roles in the evolution of early photosynthetic eukaryotes, the precursors to plants like trees and shrubs that cover Earth today.
Eunsoo Kim joined the Museum in 2012 as curator of the protist collection, which includes algae, protozoa, and fungus-like protists. A native of South Korea, Kim received her Ph.D. in botany from the University of Wisconsin-Madison and conducted postdoctoral research at Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. She works closely with associate curator Susan Perkins and curator Rob DeSalle as part of one of the first natural history museum microbial research programs.
Shinichiro Mauyama, currently a postdoctoral researcher at the Division of Environmental Photobiology at the National Institute for Basic Biology in Okazaki, Japan, is a co-author on this paper. In addition to Kim's laboratory at the Museum, this work was conducted in John Archibald's laboratory at Dalhousie University. Funding was provided by the American Museum of Natural History and Japan Society for the Promotion of Science.
Watch Kim talk about the new finding and see green algae in action in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lafL_mmv3EA

 

[tmz]

I am interested in any scientific study that documents the amount of oxygen added due to skimming. Considering that surface tension promotes nutrient export at the bubble air interface, imo, this same surface tension interfers with water/air gas exchange. For my money the water/air interface in the display tank is a much bigger player in gas exchange.
Patrick


Check out Eric Boneman's series of articles entitled The Right to Breath for starters.

The bubbles in a skimmer offer exponentially more surface area than the surface of a typcial aquarium.
I think any surface film present is permeable to gas exchange in the agitated water in a skimmer. If it wasn't fresh air to skimmer intakes and CO2 scrubbers wouldn't have the effect they do on raising pH via CO2 reduction. Mine export lot's of organics and have lots of evident surface film since I dose organic carbon ;adding a CO2 scrubber nonetheless raises pH by .15.Many also hook up airlines to the outdoors to skimmer intakes with similar effect in reducing CO2 via gas exchange.

 

[tmz]

Macro consume bacteria
<hr style="color:#FFFFFF; background-color:#FFFFFF" size="1"> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0523143741.htm

Thanks for the link. I know algae and corals adopt some forms bacteria and even some clades of zooxanthelae for symbiosis but I don't know if they consume any as food or if any of that activity is significant in terms of overall planktonic bacteria levels;just as I don't know if skimming has a significant effect on plantonic populations either. I suspect niether.

 

[tmz]

If you are using a properly designed ATS as your primary oxygen levels are normally kept very near the saturation point.

Should be so or even super saturation; during periods of photosynthesis if the algae is growing . What about non photosynthetic periods when O2 production stops? Do you run your ats on opposite photo period? My skimmers go 24/7. When I run a macro fuge ,I usually run it on opposite photo period.

 

[Subsea]

With respect to air water interface and gas exchange, the gravity flow to the sump goes across bioballs or whatever to agitate water. I also see it as economy in power consumption, instead of using an additional pump required by the skimmer.
Patrick

 

[tmz]

With respect to potassium, Red Ogo has 6 times as much potassium as nitrogen and 180 times as much phosphate. I am reevaluating my potassium nutrient management.

Potassium(K) at natural sea water levels is about 400ppm vs PO4 at the reef surface of 0.005ppm(80 thousand times more ) ;vs nitrate at about 0.2ppm its 2,000 times more. K doesnt process out like nitrogen though and isn't sunk like phopsaphte; some will be used in tissue growth ; some will be exported with some organics if those are exported . Most foods have some K.