Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate

[ReefKeeper64]

I am so glad I found this thread. I have a 210 that has been up and running for 6
months. I have been dosing vinegar for the last 4. Nitrates are o. Phosphates are
.10. I have used tons of GFO and a lanthanum chloride reactor for over a month
but I can't get the phosphates to budge. I don't think it is leeching from the rock,
I had it for 2 years in my other tank and phosphate was 0.03. Is this something I
could try, or do I have other problems?

It's absolutely worth a try. You're tank is nitrate limited right now and that is limiting the number of bacteria that your tank can support. As odd as it sounds, you want more bacteria so that they can consume both more PO4 and NO3. Bacteria don't thrive with zero nitrates.

 

[igadget56]

I have been all through this. This is my post from another thread.

 

[igadget56]

Here it is

My DI water has 0 TDS and .13 phosphate. I used 2 Hanna HI736 phosphorus meters, 4 different lot#. One API and one Saliefert, ALL readings over .10 and distilled was .09. Nobody will ever tell me again that DI and distilled water are always phosphate free. WHY? Because I bought this.
http://www.milwaukeeinstruments.com/MI412.html and confirmed the above tests. This is one sweet meter.

I started this method today.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...highlight=lacl

When I get them down .03 I will change to GFO. I have been using GFO but it's to expensive. I will use lanthanum chloride on all my RO/DI water before I use it for water changes.

Try this.http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2288470

 

[reefmutt]

That second link doesn't work for me..
I'd be interested to see the thread.

 

[igadget56]

It's absolutely worth a try. You're tank is nitrate limited right now and that is limiting the number of bacteria that your tank can support. As odd as it sounds, you want more bacteria so that they can consume both more PO4 and NO3. Bacteria don't thrive with zero nitrates.

I am dosing 40ml of vinegar a day should I cut back?

 

[ReefKeeper64]

I am dosing 40ml of vinegar a day should I cut back?

This method works because there is a proper balance of PO4, Nitrate and Carbon so I would keep dosing your carbon. Your corals will also benefit as the nitrate and additional bacteria are excellent food/energy sources. When your skimmer starts pulling out 2-3 times as much gunk out of your tank a week, you will know it is working and your PO4 test results will prove it.

I dose 50ml a day on my 150 net gallon system and that is about the same ratio of vinegar to water that Randy Holmes doses in his systems. It seems to work well for my system.

Get yourself some inexpensive sodium Nitrate online. Add a salifert sized spoonful of sodium nitrate powder to a 1 liter bottle of RO. Mix it up and start adding a little each day to your tank. Start with a 1/7 liter a day of solution and don't expect to see a reading the first day or two. Keep dosing daily until you start to get a nitrate reading. After several days you'll start to see a reading and keep going until you get to around 2. The safe range is 0.5 - 5.0 for SPS but I recommend targeting for 2.0 to get started. Once you are getting to 2, cut back in half. You will notice that it is easy to keep Nitrate in your system once you are getting a reading and with some practice you will learn to dial it in for you own unique tank needs. The recipe is conservative and you won't overshoot your goal if your net water volume is around 150 gallons. Just adjust your dosage accordingly for your tank size.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying you won't need any GFO after you start manipulating bacteria growth this way because I don't know everything about your tank. The one thing I can tell you though is that this method absolutely works and you'll need a lot less GFO to keep your PO4 in check in the future.

Happy Reefing!

 

[igadget56]

Reefkeeper64 Thank you, sounds like a plan. I have one question. You state add 1/7 liter per day. Am I correct saying that would be 143 ml's per day? Thanks very much.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Reefkeeper64 Thank you, sounds like a plan. I have one question. You state add 1/7 liter per day. Am I correct saying that would be 143 ml's per day? Thanks very much.

That's right. This recipe is extremely diluted to be on the safe side for a 150 gal system. Rounding up to 150ml/day to get to 2 is fine as well. For a 100 gal system, 100ml a day would be the equivalent. Once you are at 2, you'll want to reduce the frequency you are dosing so that the same 150ml dose may only be needed once every 3 or 4 days. Or even say a 300ml maintenance dose that is applied only once a week. You get the idea. With a little experience you'll find the maintenance dose that is right for your unique tank. Happy Reefing!

 

[tmz]

I am dosing 40ml of vinegar a day should I cut back?

Most settle in somehere betwen .4 and .6 ml 5% vinegar or it's equivalent in organic carbon per gallon of system water.

 

[pfoxgrover]

My tank is a Nitrate Junky

My tank is a Nitrate Junky

Here is a summary of my experience with adding Nitrate

I started adding Sodium Nitrate 5 months ago. I figured out that using a solution of 1 gram of Sodium Nitrate per liter of water.
After some careful slow additions I can to a dosage of 20 ml per day to have a measurable amount of NO3, 0.5 to 1 ppm for a 240 gallon tank using a Red Sea Pro test.
I dosed that for a while and whenever I would test NO3 like every two weeks I would get zero so I would up the dosage. I would only increase a little at a time and slower if I didn't have time for a lot of testing.

At this point I'm up to a daily dose 24 times greater than when I dialed it in (I changed the concentration but it equates to 0.48 grams dry NaNo3 per day) and I'm reading zero No3.

I have been upping the dose and testing daily but I'm getting a little worried about my mounting additions. I think my biopellets can keep up with any amount of nitrate I add or so it seems. It is either that, the two clams or a bad test kit (kit is not expired).

I switched to Phosguard from gfo because of a clam Pinched Mantel problem that is gone for now (Phosguard sucks by the way) and can't get PO4 down.

Today I read about 0.2 PO4 per hanna ULR phosphorus checker,
NO3 = 0.

I started getting hair algae on the sand for the first time in like 7 years of reefing. I ordered some more gfo yesterday hoping it wont kill my clams.

I did notice a spike in PO4 when my pellet reactor stopped for a few days so there is definitely an effect although I cant seem to make the system PO4 limited. Maybe this will not work with biopellets or maybe I need to keep upping the dose.

Comments are welcome as always.
-Paul

 

[MHG]

I am glad I stumbled on this thread. I have been fighting to keep my nitrates in the detectable range. My corals grow and look great at about 1-2ppm... but I cant seem to keep them up. it keeps dropping to zero...I am following...

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Here is a summary of my experience with adding Nitrate

I started adding Sodium Nitrate 5 months ago. I figured out that using a solution of 1 gram of Sodium Nitrate per liter of water.
After some careful slow additions I can to a dosage of 20 ml per day to have a measurable amount of NO3, 0.5 to 1 ppm for a 240 gallon tank using a Red Sea Pro test.
I dosed that for a while and whenever I would test NO3 like every two weeks I would get zero so I would up the dosage. I would only increase a little at a time and slower if I didn't have time for a lot of testing.

At this point I'm up to a daily dose 24 times greater than when I dialed it in (I changed the concentration but it equates to 0.48 grams dry NaNo3 per day) and I'm reading zero No3.

I have been upping the dose and testing daily but I'm getting a little worried about my mounting additions. I think my biopellets can keep up with any amount of nitrate I add or so it seems. It is either that, the two clams or a bad test kit (kit is not expired).

I switched to Phosguard from gfo because of a clam Pinched Mantel problem that is gone for now (Phosguard sucks by the way) and can't get PO4 down.

Today I read about 0.2 PO4 per hanna ULR phosphorus checker,
NO3 = 0.

I started getting hair algae on the sand for the first time in like 7 years of reefing. I ordered some more gfo yesterday hoping it wont kill my clams.

I did notice a spike in PO4 when my pellet reactor stopped for a few days so there is definitely an effect although I cant seem to make the system PO4 limited. Maybe this will not work with biopellets or maybe I need to keep upping the dose.

Comments are welcome as always.
-Paul

It looks like you started with a very small amount and worked your way up so I don't think you are dosing heavily. You might want to buy another NO3 test kit to give yourself the assurance that your NO3 levels are as the current test kit says they are. Once you know your NO3 is really dropping to zero, consider a doser to regulate your NO3 additions.

I was using bio pellets last year with a cad lights recirculating reactor that you can supposedly dial down to meet your needs (it didn't). I noticed Randy Holmes Farley, tmz, and others prefer vinegar along with a doser because they can dial in the carbon additions in precise amounts that way. I switched to vinegar and a doser and it worked as advertised. One of the first things I noticed over bio pellets is that I could reduce the dosage easily and my nitrate consumption dropped along with it. When I was using bio pellets, my nitrate would dissipate from my system much faster than it does now and if they dropped to zero my PO4 would jump up to the same levels you are experiencing. Carbon additions are a constant so now I can predict PO4 levels by whatever my NO3 levels are now. 0 nitrates=high PO4 every time.

 

[tmz]

Actually, I prefer vodka with some some vinegar and dose manually. Either vodka or vinegar offer more precise control in dosing vs a pellet reactor. Randy dosed only vinegar.

 

[reefmutt]

I guess this isn't the first thread on this topic but I still feel like it should be required reading for any reef keeper..
Question.. As I've stated, I'm in the 0 no3 high po4 group. I have a refugium full of growing cheato, a sand bed and a decent skimmer. Before I start dosing no3, I want to start reducing these other n and p grabbing methods. I've turned down the skimmer a little and removed some of my sandbed- to no avail. Which of these three methods has the greatest effect on reducing no3 over po4?
Between the sand bed and the cheato, which do you guys think I should reduce or remove first?
Thanks!

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Actually, I prefer vodka with some some vinegar and dose manually. Either vodka or vinegar offer more precise control in dosing vs a pellet reactor. Randy dosed only vinegar.

Hey Tom, Sorry about that. It's Randy I was thinking of initially. He uses a doser to add vinegar right out of the 1 gal jug it comes in from the grocery store.

 

[Madehtsobi]

Hey reef keeper!

was wondering where did you purchase your sodium nitrate from? And what is the dilution ratio in gallons?

im currently using a lacl diy reactor but my phos reads at .067 (Hanna URL ) and nitrates are reading 0 on api...

I dose almost 50ml of lacl a day but in a very diluted solution..

want to give this sodium nitrate a try and see if it'll make any difference

Thanks

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Hey reef keeper!

was wondering where did you purchase your sodium nitrate from? And what is the dilution ratio in gallons?

im currently using a lacl diy reactor but my phos reads at .067 (Hanna URL ) and nitrates are reading 0 on api...

I dose almost 50ml of lacl a day but in a very diluted solution..

want to give this sodium nitrate a try and see if it'll make any difference

Thanks

0.06 is already a healthy PO4 level but its always good to have a little NO3 in your system. Sciencecompany . com is the place.

sciencecompany . com/Sodium-Nitrate-500g-P16240.aspx

(remove the spaces between sciencecompany and dot and com)

 

[Madehtsobi]

0.06 is already a healthy PO4 level but its always good to have a little NO3 in your system. Sciencecompany . com is the place.

sciencecompany . com/Sodium-Nitrate-500g-P16240.aspx

(remove the spaces between sciencecompany and dot and com)

thanks chris!

what is the dilution ratio?

found this on amazon..same thing?

 

[tmz]

I guess this isn't the first thread on this topic but I still feel like it should be required reading for any reef keeper..
Question.. As I've stated, I'm in the 0 no3 high po4 group. I have a refugium full of growing cheato, a sand bed and a decent skimmer. Before I start dosing no3, I want to start reducing these other n and p grabbing methods. I've turned down the skimmer a little and removed some of my sandbed- to no avail. Which of these three methods has the greatest effect on reducing no3 over po4?
Between the sand bed and the cheato, which do you guys think I should reduce or remove
Thanks!

If the chaeto is healthy and the sand isn't clogged up , I wouldn't remove either . If the chaeto is on on opposite photo period ;it's helping oxygen levels at night and diurnal pH drop too. It also uses dissolved nitrogen in addition to inorganic phosaphte and provides some habitat for pods and such.

Sand provides surface area for bacteria colonize anaerobic when it's not too clogged up to have the other nutrients the bacteria need .
How high is the PO4?

It's by no means a certainty that upping NO3 will reduce PO4. A number of variables could be in play . A nitrogen deficiency may or may not be one of them in given situations but usually not in well fed tanks where macro algae flourishes

.This is still an experimental technique for reef tanks and the anecdotal accounts provided are very helpful .

I've toyed with dosing small amounts of dissolved nitrogen and noticed and noted a bit richer coral color( it was good to start) and a small uptick in nuisance algae. Maybe I was seeing what I thought I should see .

 

[tmz]

For counterpoint:

I think, it's time for a few caveats :

Nitrate is still considered a more of a bane to reef tanks than a benefit. It drives some nuisance algae and perhaps more importantly ,zooxanthelae in corals which often leads to browning and or bleaching .
Tests kits are often imprecise particularly at low ranges. Many tanks run very well with undetectable NO3. Surface ocean water has only 0.2ppm NO3. The bacteria assimilating nitrogen and phosphate may be using other forms of dissolved nitrogen like ammonia.

So, for now until more practical anecdotal information develops, I plan to tweak nitrogen a tiny bit to keep it at 0.2 to 1ppm per the Salifert test kit and observe any changes over several months time .