Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate

[DiscusHeckel]

What are you suggesting as a different iron? What exactly is this your suggestion for a different iron? I dose an off the shelf liquid iron (brightwell aquatics) and it is effective but I have no affinity to that brand. Its just available from my LFS.

This thread may answer your question.

 

[reefmutt]

I think flypenfly from your linked thread is the way iron use is being discussed in this thread.
I you go back a page.. Not even, you will find that the discussion has been about the potential o aquariums being iron limited when p won't come down while adding n..

 

[reefmutt]

Actually, this leads me to a question about chelated iron products..
Will a chelated iron supplement work just as well AND show up on test kits like iron citrate or the iron that is in supplements for enhancing the green pigments in corals?

 

[reefmutt]

So, I'm having a bit of a freak out..
Last week, with a sump full of sand and cheato, I was running 0 no3 and around .06 for po4 while using large amounts (almost rediculous amounts) of gfo.
So, in an attempt to increase n, I removed the cheato and sand. This gave me a reading of between .3-.5 ppm no3 within a couple of days... So I thought I was happy until I tested po4 and saw that it was skyrocketing!! It's now at .18 with fresh rowaphos in on Sunday.
I just tested my iron with a Red Sea iron test and got no color change whatsoever.
I can only assume (and hope) that I am iron limited.
I have purchased the Red Sea iron supplement, coral colors C.
I have reintroduced about 20% of my sand which I assume will take a few weeks to become active again (it was removed from the water but remained moist) and will also add more cheato.
I will also begin to add iron and try to achieve a reading of around .05-.1ppm. I will buy a hanna iron checker as well.
I won't dump it in all at once, although at the moment that's exactly what I want to do..
I will report back with results in a few days, I guess..

 

[ReefKeeper64]

So, I'm having a bit of a freak out..
Last week, with a sump full of sand and cheato, I was running 0 no3 and around .06 for po4 while using large amounts (almost rediculous amounts) of gfo.
So, in an attempt to increase n, I removed the cheato and sand. This gave me a reading of between .3-.5 ppm no3 within a couple of days... So I thought I was happy until I tested po4 and saw that it was skyrocketing!! It's now at .18 with fresh rowaphos in on Sunday.
I just tested my iron with a Red Sea iron test and got no color change whatsoever.
I can only assume (and hope) that I am iron limited.
I have purchased the Red Sea iron supplement, coral colors C.
I have reintroduced about 20% of my sand which I assume will take a few weeks to become active again (it was removed from the water but remained moist) and will also add more cheato.
I will also begin to add iron and try to achieve a reading of around .05-.1ppm. I will buy a hanna iron checker as well.
I won't dump it in all at once, although at the moment that's exactly what I want to do..
I will report back with results in a few days, I guess..

I know you have good intentions but I wouldn't try to make so many changes so fast. 0.18 PO4 isn't all that terrible and should come down gently.

First, cut way back on your fish feeding for a few days. Your fish will understand.

Don't add any more of your sand back right now because it is far from sterile (later after things are in the zone then sure, but only 2 cups worth a day).

Iron seems to deplete quickly. Hanna checker is a good idea and so is the iron supplement but you also need a good carbon dosing regimen so make sure you have that going. Bacteria filtering like this will not work without it because you need the extra carbon to maintain the extra bacteria you want to consume PO4.

You should notice an increase in skimmate if the carbon dosing, nitrate (1-3) and iron are in balance. Skim wet so that you are emptying your skimmer cup every couple of days.

Save your GFO so you can recharge it later. Very easy and cheap to do. You many need GFO for a while until your tank really cleans up to ULNS.

Good luck and let us know how things are going.

 

[mocika]

I want to clear something in my head.
If we have ULNS we should dose nitrate (NaNo3). When we rich target No3 we should start dosing carbon to start bacteria grow which will leading to lowering No3 and Po4. So we must find balance for dosing nitrates (NaNo3) and dosing carbon?
If i start dosing carbon i must dose every day?
If so, did i must dose NaNo3 also every day? I have one slot on my doser free so that why i ask.
Also if i start to dose carbon and after some time i decide to stop. If there will be problem in my reef because of lowering bacteria in the sistem?
Tnx in advance

 

[tmz]

If we have ULNS we should dose nitrate (NaNo3). When we rich target No3 we should start dosing carbon to start bacteria grow which will leading to lowering No3 and Po4. So we must find balance for dosing nitrates (NaNo3) and dosing carbon?

Not always. Even with undetectable nitrate per hobby grade test kits there may be quite enough dissolved nitrogen for teh bateria. I never used nitrate dosing as part o organic carbon start up. IMO, it's still an experimental method for reeftanks.
If i start dosing carbon i must dose every day?

Yes ,organic carbon should be dosed everyday , the bacteria grow fast and need a daily replenishment of organic carbon to replace those exported by skimming. I dose every 12 hours,fwiw.

If so, did i must dose NaNo3 also every day?

I have t

 

[reefmutt]

Reefkeeper, thanks for talking me off the ledge!
Just to clarify, I have never carbon dosed.
Using sand beds and cheato, I was keeping n at 0 according to my Red Sea test kit and p around .06 with lots of gfo.
System is only 4 months old..
I will slow down on feeding and turn up the skimmer a bit..
But are you suggesting I begin carbon dosing?
I have always assumed that wether carbon dosing to reduce n and p or using denitrification and algae, the principle was the same- once n is gone, p will not go down any further.
Am I not correct here? If not, given my situation, do you think I should start carbon dosing or wait in the carbon dosing and see if the iron additions alone will help?
If need be, I will start dosing vinegar.
Thanks for all the help!

 

[mhucasey]

I came across an interesting tidbit regarding Iron in a bacterially driven system. IN MY opinion, on balance the best SPS tanks in the world use the Zeovit system. The knock on Zeovit(and the reason I didn't start my current tank with that system) is that its demanding and fussy and that you have to pump the reactor each day. Many people claim that the Zeovit zeolites are a kind of snake oil.

I noticed in the DSR method thread(http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2301583) that Glen used some no-name pond Zeolites in the same fashion as the Zeovit system. Digging further, I found that someone in Europe has chemically analyzed the zeolites in the Zeovit system and they slowly leach iron!

So in that system, the zeolites sit in a reactor, providing a ready, locally increased source of iron. The system provides a carbon source, and the bacteria very happily colonize the zeolite stones. By using the zeolites, the bacteria can have a high iron environment without the whole tank overdosing. That is why the stones must be replaced every 6-12 weeks, and why they go faster with a higher bioload.

They state that the Zeolites absorb ammonia - there may be a bit of that going on but my reasearch shows this effect is minimal and works best in fresh water.

This wasn't meant to be a plug for Zeovit, I continue to maintain my system with common white vinegar, but i find all these tidbits of information fascinating as we figure out what it takes to keep the bacteria happy and productive.

 

[alessandro]

Thanks mine just hung around at 0.5 to 1ppm for weeks after using sodium nitrate. Just curious as to whether infrequent additions are a general trend.

Tom,
What is your diluition rate of your solution and how much NANO3 solution are you daily dosing to keep NO3 between 0.5 and 1ppm?
I started from couple of weeks to dose NANO3 in slow incremental values ​​and I have reached 1ml per day on 300 gallons for a solution of 100g NANO3 dissolved 0.75 liter but still can not unlock the value of NO3 from 0...

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Reefkeeper, thanks for talking me off the ledge!
Just to clarify, I have never carbon dosed.
Using sand beds and cheato, I was keeping n at 0 according to my Red Sea test kit and p around .06 with lots of gfo.
System is only 4 months old..
I will slow down on feeding and turn up the skimmer a bit..
But are you suggesting I begin carbon dosing? Yes, that is what I would do if I were you. It will allow for more bacteria to consume more PO4 and NO3.

I have always assumed that wether carbon dosing to reduce n and p or using denitrification and algae, the principle was the same- once n is gone, p will not go down any further. Yes, if PO4 limited, NO3 takes longer to drop. If NO3 limited, PO4 takes longer to drop.

Am I not correct here? If not, given my situation, do you think I should start carbon dosing or wait in the carbon dosing and see if the iron additions alone will help? I would recommend starting a carbon dosing regimen as a higher priority than iron additions. Carbon dosing will increase your bacteria count and is a key component of the redfield principal. Even without iron adds, this process works well. I only recently learned and experimented with iron additions from GlennF. The iron definitely helps the whole process work better but it is in addition to carbon and isn't a replacement for carbon by any means. Search on RC for "Glennf DSR method" and you can learn more details from Glenn. He has 8 years of experience in dosing both carbon and iron together.

If need be, I will start dosing vinegar. You will be glad you did!
Thanks for all the help!

 

[reefmutt]

Once again, thanks!!
I will look up Glenn tonight.
What about biopellets as a carbon source instead of vinegar?
It's just simpler for me to slap on a reaction chamber than make a manual addition- especially on days when I am not around..

 

[mhucasey]

I just took biopellets off-line for the second time, back to Vinegar only for me. In my experience the pellets leach too many complex carbohydrates into the water, and this irritates the SPS. Within half a day of taking the pellets off line, I had two SPS showing polyp extension that hadn't done that in a couple of months.

Consistency is a very good thing, so rather than buying a reactor and pellets, maybe spend the 85 bucks or so for a BRS dosing pump, you can run the inlet line into a one gallon jug of vinegar, and the other end drips in your sump.
If you don't have a controller use a light timer to add the dose at the same time each day.


Why did I try biopellets again? Well, I love a challenge and my LFS has been using the pellets from ReefDynamics with their Recirculating reactor. I think more key than the pellet rector for them is that they effectively change a lot of water by replacing water that goes out the door in bags with livestock. In any event I didn't have the same success with pellets and so I'm done messing with them.

 

[reefmutt]

Ok, so what volume of vinegar for a 250g sps only with 7 well fed fish (not so well fed at the moment) no3 is .5 and po4 is around .15..
Thanks!

 

[mhucasey]

It varies per tank, if it was a well fed tank, I've heard 0.4 to 0.6ml vinegar per gallon of system volume is where you will end up at.

You should build up to the dose though using the guide:http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium


Plain white vinegar is super cheap at the supermarket, about 3-5 bucks for a gallon jug.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

I've run bio-pellets in the past. With bio-pellets I did notice that the nitrate would drop faster than when using vinegar but the drawback in my case seemed to be that I always had a bit of a brown haze on the sand. The pellet manufacturers say you can't overdose pellets but I don't believe that at all. With pellets, you don't really have a good feel for how much is the right amount. When I switched over to vinegar, I found I could control exactly how much gets dosed a day. I also found that I can easily dial in the right amount of vinegar to where carbon dosing is effective and still light enough that the brown haze went away. I won't go back to pellets again, it just isn't as controllable a dosing with vinegar.

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks for all the help, guys.
I will start vinegar tonight and I guess I'll stop the iron additions for the moment.
I'll start at 8 ml for my 250 gal system and go from there.
And I will be investing in a doser- definitely makes the most sense!

 

[tmz]

Post #347 continued. I'm sorry; for some reason half the response to mocika'squestion didn't go through. Cut off in mid sentence. Here" a retry:

If we have ULNS we should dose nitrate (NaNo3). When we rich target No3 we should start dosing carbon to start bacteria grow which will leading to lowering No3 and Po4. So we must find balance for dosing nitrates (NaNo3) and dosing carbon?

Not always. Even with undetectable nitrate per hobby grade test kits there may be quite enough dissolved nitrogen for teh bateria. I never used nitrate dosing as part o organic carbon start up. IMO, it's still an experimental method for reeftanks.
If i start dosing carbon i must dose every day?

Yes ,organic carbon should be dosed everyday , the bacteria grow fast and need a daily replenishment of organic carbon to replace those exported by skimming. I dose every 12 hours,fwiw.

If so, did i must dose NaNo3 also every day?

I have dosed it in small amounts( just 2 to 3 grams for 650 gallons) increasing the nitrate level to .5 / 1ppm and the nitrate level held there for a couple of weeks without further dosing. There was no noticeable additional reduction in PO4 in my case. I also tried aspartic acid with similar results.

Also if i start to dose carbon and after some time i decide to stop. If there will be problem in my reef because of lowering bacteria in the sistem?

The PO4 and NO3 levels will likely rise and you may see some nuisance algae blooming. I stopped once many years ago and saw abloom of nuisance algae; that was about 8 years ago. This run, I've been dosing vodka anvinegar dialy for over 5 years.

 

[mocika]

Post #347 continued. I'm sorry; for some reason half the response to mocika'squestion didn't go through. Cut off in mid sentence. Here" a retry:

If we have ULNS we should dose nitrate (NaNo3). When we rich target No3 we should start dosing carbon to start bacteria grow which will leading to lowering No3 and Po4. So we must find balance for dosing nitrates (NaNo3) and dosing carbon?

Not always. Even with undetectable nitrate per hobby grade test kits there may be quite enough dissolved nitrogen for teh bateria. I never used nitrate dosing as part o organic carbon start up. IMO, it's still an experimental method for reeftanks.
If i start dosing carbon i must dose every day?

Yes ,organic carbon should be dosed everyday , the bacteria grow fast and need a daily replenishment of organic carbon to replace those exported by skimming. I dose every 12 hours,fwiw.

If so, did i must dose NaNo3 also every day?

I have dosed it in small amounts( just 2 to 3 grams for 650 gallons) increasing the nitrate level to .5 / 1ppm and the nitrate level held there for a couple of weeks without further dosing. There was no noticeable additional reduction in PO4 in my case. I also tried aspartic acid with similar results.

Also if i start to dose carbon and after some time i decide to stop. If there will be problem in my reef because of lowering bacteria in the sistem?

The PO4 and NO3 levels will likely rise and you may see some nuisance algae blooming. I stopped once many years ago and saw abloom of nuisance algae; that was about 8 years ago. This run, I've been dosing vodka anvinegar dialy for over 5 years.

Tnx a lot. Defeitly i will try to lower Po4 with using phosban. I hopo i will rich what i want. If not than i will try plus carbonn dosig. Tnx again.

 

[tmz]

You are welcome. Good luck.