Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate

[pfoxgrover]

Just a quick update.

The nitrate induced green hair algae war has escalated to new levels.

I have been using the caustic soda method described by Glennf and that does work but since you can only use a little each day, I'm having trouble keeping up with the growth. I have done about 7 - 8 ml applications to my 240 gallon tank so far.
I have been reluctant to spend a lot of money on a clean-up crew. I have 3 med/large tangs and a rabbit fish along with hundreds on tiny round nocturnal snails. I have also been manually removing it from the sand and where it's bad enough to pull out by hand.
Nitrate is at 0 and PO4 is at 0.046 ppm.

 

[barjam]

Just a quick update.

The nitrate induced green hair algae war has escalated to new levels.

I have been using the caustic soda method described by Glennf and that does work but since you can only use a little each day, I'm having trouble keeping up with the growth. I have done about 7 - 8 ml applications to my 240 gallon tank so far.
I have been reluctant to spend a lot of money on a clean-up crew. I have 3 med/large tangs and a rabbit fish along with hundreds on tiny round nocturnal snails. I have also been manually removing it from the sand and where it's bad enough to pull out by hand.
Nitrate is at 0 and PO4 is at 0.046 ppm.

If you can get the rocks out a little bit of hydrogen peroxide will eliminate algae (including coraline). Some corals are sensitive to this though (sps).

 

[pfoxgrover]

If you can get the rocks out a little bit of hydrogen peroxide will eliminate algae (including coraline). Some corals are sensitive to this though (sps).

How do you apply it? scrub them in a bucket with the hydrogen peroxide? I have done that with vinegar before but not for years.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

...

 

[glennf]

post some pictures of your problem.
which tangs do you have ?
do you have sea urchins ?

Just a quick update.

The nitrate induced green hair algae war has escalated to new levels.

I have been using the caustic soda method described by Glennf and that does work but since you can only use a little each day, I'm having trouble keeping up with the growth. I have done about 7 - 8 ml applications to my 240 gallon tank so far.
I have been reluctant to spend a lot of money on a clean-up crew. I have 3 med/large tangs and a rabbit fish along with hundreds on tiny round nocturnal snails. I have also been manually removing it from the sand and where it's bad enough to pull out by hand.
Nitrate is at 0 and PO4 is at 0.046 ppm.

 

[barjam]

How do you apply it? scrub them in a bucket with the hydrogen peroxide? I have done that with vinegar before but not for years.

All I do is lift the rock up over the sink and pour it on the areas with algae being careful to avoid the SPS. I wait one minute, rinse with saltwater, and put the rock back. It kills *all* algae on the rock including coralline.

There are threads related to this on the forums. If I remember correctly some soft corals are ok with getting it on them no idea though. I have gotten it on zoanthids but I don't care if the zoas in my tank die or not as they are a pest I regularly kill with kalk anyhow.

 

[tmz]

It will not kill bryopsis algae ;that will come right back. It's a strong oxidant and will kill things seen and unseen. Air exposure may also kill some sponges and other animals living in/on the rock Be carefull with it. Rinse it off before putting the rock back in the tank.

 

[Dr. X]

How about Algaefix Marine by API? It cleared my tanks of GHA, and others have had similar experience (search the forums).

 

[barjam]

It will not kill bryopsis algae ;that will come right back. It's a strong oxidant and will kill things seen and unseen. Air exposure may also kill some sponges and other animals living in/on the rock Be carefull with it. Rinse it off before putting the rock back in the tank.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the bryopsis issue. Really anyone reading this should read up on this before even considering it. It is a pretty drastic measure and is just a shortcut.

 

[GroktheCube]

You could also try an LaCl drip. Order some 5 micron filter socks from somewhere like Ohio Biodiesel Supply, along with some LaCl as pool phosphate remover and a peristaltic pump. Put GAC effluent through the sock along with the LaCl at a couple drops/sec (heavily diluted, 5ml/liter or so). That could take .4ppm PO4 down to under .1 in a couple hours. Make sure you watch alk, as the La will form a precip with it as well. Much cheaper than GFO, and much easier/safer than using strong oxidants or caustic soda on the algae.

 

[pfoxgrover]

post some pictures of your problem.
which tangs do you have ?
do you have sea urchins ?

I did like a 5 hour tank cleaning yesterday so pictures right now wont show much. here are the after pics

I moved to the sump any affected rocks that I didn't care too much about the corals attached, mostly zoas. I also picked out as much as I could and stirred the sand bed.

I have a yellow, hippo, and a naso. also a fox face rabbit fish. all around 6-8". I know only one of them are on your list from before. Some of the ones you listed sound pretty aggressive toward other tangs.

No urchins. What species and how many for a 240g tank would you recommend? do they attack clams?

 

[glennf]

Looking good now.
I think 2-3 urchin can make a difference in long term.
I also would recommend 5-10 mexican turbosnails - Turbo Fluctuosus
And 2-3 , Dolabella auricularia very useful in removing briopsis.
In short therm you need to pluck until the animals can keep up with the growth.

Small cavities with algea can be dealed with with 5-10% caustic soda solution.
Make sure to use strong current or an extra pump to spread it it as fast as possible after the soaking period.

Don't use any trace element for a while, and if your no3 an p4 are under control you can consider longer intervals between waterchanges. (I presume you do waterchanges)
What trace elements are you using atm and what wc intervals?

What areyou no3 and po4 levels (which test is used)?

 

[pfoxgrover]

What trace elements are you using atm and what wc intervals?
What are your no3 and po4 levels (which test is used)?

Kalk, mg, and 2 part is all I'm adding other than fish food.
about 4 days ago nitrate was undetectable with a red sea pro

Lately I have been changing out just enough water to vacuum the sump and sometimes the sand about once a month. In the past I was doing about 30 gallons a month.
PO4 was 0.04 ppm using ULR phosphorus checker. I have changed out the gfo since then, I'll try to retest tomorrow.

 

[glennf]

Kalk, mg, and 2 part is all I'm adding other than fish food.
about 4 days ago nitrate was undetectable with a red sea pro

Lately I have been changing out just enough water to vacuum the sump and sometimes the sand about once a month. In the past I was doing about 30 gallons a month.
PO4 was 0.04 ppm using ULR phosphorus checker. I have changed out the gfo since then, I'll try to retest tomorrow.

what is "2 part" ? sorry for my ignorance, but i don't know that product, maybe we have another name for it in here.

do you see any problems on you corals development or coloring that make you decide to dose nitrate ?
what was your main reason for dosing nitrate ?

whenever you have algae problems, you need to handle them first before trying work with elevated PO4 and NO3 levels.

 

[pfoxgrover]

what is "2 part" ? sorry for my ignorance, but I don't know that product, maybe we have another name for it in here.

Sorry about that. I dose calcium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate separately to maintain calcium and alkalinity, that is what I meant by 2 Part.

do you see any problems on you corals development or coloring that make you decide to dose nitrate ?
what was your main reason for dosing nitrate ?

I have had problems with Pinched Mantel disease in one of my clams and to treat it I had to stop running GFO. ( I just started running GFO again and so far the clams show no signs of Pinched Mantel disease coming back. I have been running it for a couple months now.)
I switched to using Sea Chem Phosguard, but that didn't seem to keep my phosphate levels down. ( I also had a series of bad reagent batches from Hanna that didn't help my sanity level :headwally: )
I had already read and heard on RC of some dosing nitrate to feed their clams and due to the biopellets that I am running in my system, it is likely limited by nitrate.
Given all that and this thread I decide to start dosing nitrate.

whenever you have algae problems, you need to handle them first before trying work with elevated PO4 and NO3 levels.

Before dosing nitrate I have not had an algae problem in probably 6 years.
One thing I want to point out is that for many months I slowly increased the nitrate dose trying to get to a measureable reading less than 2 ppm. The biopellets made this pretty much impossible. While the biopellets were reducing the nitrate each day, so was the green hair algae. I didn't notice the oncoming total invasion and I continued to up the dosage. If I would have delayed action by even a week or two I think I would have had all the corals overgrown with green hair algae. The caustic soda has been a big help so far. That and a huge increase in maintenance!

 

[glennf]

Sorry about that. I dose calcium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate separately to maintain calcium and alkalinity, that is what I meant by 2 Part.



I have had problems with Pinched Mantel disease in one of my clams and to treat it I had to stop running GFO. ( I just started running GFO again and so far the clams show no signs of Pinched Mantel disease coming back. I have been running it for a couple months now.)
I switched to using Sea Chem Phosguard, but that didn't seem to keep my phosphate levels down. ( I also had a series of bad reagent batches from Hanna that didn't help my sanity level :headwally: )
I had already read and heard on RC of some dosing nitrate to feed their clams and due to the biopellets that I am running in my system, it is likely limited by nitrate.
Given all that and this thread I decide to start dosing nitrate.





Before dosing nitrate I have not had an algae problem in probably 6 years.
One thing I want to point out is that for many months I slowly increased the nitrate dose trying to get to a measureable reading less than 2 ppm. The biopellets made this pretty much impossible. While the biopellets were reducing the nitrate each day, so was the green hair algae. I didn't notice the oncoming total invasion and I continued to up the dosage. If I would have delayed action by even a week or two I think I would have had all the corals overgrown with green hair algae. The caustic soda has been a big help so far. That and a huge increase in maintenance!

Ok , now it make sense.

I think now is time to select the right cleaning crew and start focus battling the algea with all means you have.

Only when you get control over the algea
You can start thinking about dosing nitrate.

Because a biopellets remove nitrate more efficient it is better to use only GFO.
Because you like some nitrate but want to get rid mainly of the phosphate.

Dosing nitrate and iron citrate is not a option until you manage to contol the algea .
But in case of an urgent po4 problem it could be consideren as the best of two "non-ideal" solutions

Also keep in mind the rich algea growth is a po4/no3 export mechanism also.
So when removing all algae this can get elevated also, which can boast new algae growth.
So you need te get out of this loop bij finding an alternative export mechanism for po4/no3 and also eliminate algae growth.

Bij algea you mean briopsis i think.....

 

[the_real_brian]

It's been a few months so I wanted to update my results.

Dosing NO3 with vodka got my PO4 down below 0.03 ppm but my lonely test acro started to STN. I stopped dosing vodka and after a few weeks the STN stopped and I actually experienced a growth spurt.

I continue to dose NO3 without vodka and my phosphates have settled in the 0.03-0.04 range. My lonely little acro has stopped growing again though so I think I may have to feed more even without dosing any vodka.

Throughout my NO3 dosing experience my NO3 has never tested above 0.5 ppm and usually stays around 0.2. Before I started dosing, NO3 was always undetectable and my PO4 stayed above 0.1 ppm. I finally feel confident enough with my parameters to add more SPS. :celeb2:

 

[glennf]

It's been a few months so I wanted to update my results.

Dosing NO3 with vodka got my PO4 down below 0.03 ppm but my lonely test acro started to STN. I stopped dosing vodka and after a few weeks the STN stopped and I actually experienced a growth spurt.

I continue to dose NO3 without vodka and my phosphates have settled in the 0.03-0.04 range. My lonely little acro has stopped growing again though so I think I may have to feed more even without dosing any vodka.

Throughout my NO3 dosing experience my NO3 has never tested above 0.5 ppm and usually stays around 0.2. Before I started dosing, NO3 was always undetectable and my PO4 stayed above 0.1 ppm. I finally feel confident enough with my parameters to add more SPS. :celeb2:

Nice ...how about that!
More real life experience how you can get grip of things.

 

[2_zoa]

I'm curious if anyone of you all dosing nitrate are running ozone? Or those that don't feel the need to dose nitrate run ozone? Yet carbon dose

Reason is, I don't understand ozone fully and I've read that ozone generators put a type of nitrate into the water. Am I way off base?

 

[tmz]

Ozone can increase nitrate in two ways of whic I am aware:

If moist air undried air is used for the genertator it may form HNO3, nitric acid from water and nitrogen gas .The nitric acid lowers pH ,depletes alkainity and adds nitrate to the aqaurium. This is why most use airidryers for air going to the O3 generator.

It will also reduce ammonia to nitrate.

Seems to me the effects of either of these will be hard to predict vis a vie measured nitrate dosing.

I do not use ozone;perhaps someone else will chime in.

FYI,this article,the first in a series by Randy Farely has much more abut ozone:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php