Dr. Bridge's ALK auto test and correction

[shih87]

I would like to decouple this topic from my link http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23418411#post23418411

Elton and I are waiting for an auto ALK test tool for a while. We are excited to see Mindstream announcement 2 years ago which target to integrate all water parameters test tools in one, and include ALK test. Unfortunately, I have been waiting for too long and I never see them update ALK part but all other less critical water parameters ;-(

Then we start talking to a friend in Taiwan, Dr. Bridge (a nickname I call him…Haha)

(DR. BRIDGE....)

He then invented a prototype for KH auto test, monitoring, and correction daily or hourly. Below is his tank running with the prototype, absolutely no manual KH test and KH correction for 9 months, and his KH daily log show less than 10% fluctuation all the time.

(A LAB TANK WITHOUT ANY MANUAL KH CORRECTION for 9 MONTHS)

 

[shih87]

Here is the prototype #1 and #2 in picture...... It is a 15 cm X 15 cm X 25 cm in size and weight 1.5Kg for now... He is still waiting his IP to get approved (almost there), so sorry I have to mosaic the most critical part for now.....

Anyway, I am excited to get his toy on my tank soon....:bounce1:


Welcome questions, comments and feedback to help him improve his toy.

 

[Elton Wng]

It is the long leave saver as I normally will leave my sps tank 2 months evey year. It really can help me when I take two moths vacation.

 

[rwb500]

ok, i'll bite.. How does it work?

 

[shih87]

ok, i'll bite.. How does it work?

There is really nothing try to sale or using promotion language here, I rather see comments and suggestions, plus I am so proud of my friend, Dr. Bridge, so can't wait to share on RC....

"Ok, I will bite"… That was exactly my react couple weeks ago….

The entire design need to tune to next level, but it is a combination of computer engineering (he use Arduino for main software development), and it require another friend's optical knowledge and chemistry knowledge.

Of course, there are rooms to improve from this POC (proof of concept) phase. Such as…
Each KH test require 7 minutes. I think it need to improve to less than 3 minutes.
Unit size need to shrink to half at least.
Require better GUI and APP on iPhone and Smart phone
BOM cost need to drop to half...

Honestly, when first time Elton told me Dr. Bridge start developing ALK auto tool, I didn’t put much thought and share Midstream link to Dr. Bridge. Basically, I don’t think worth to try ourselves as a reefer since I can get Midstream commercial product later, and remind him reliability is a MUST for 6 months trouble free trial, and I really doubt he will success.

I then put our conversation behind and never think about that anymore. Year later, Mindstream update many things (include they move to a new place….), but I still don’t see any news regarding ALK test…..Meanwhile, Elton told me Dr. Bridge took my advice seriously and have been tested for 9 months!!!.

Ok, then I will bite…I asked Elton arranged a visit to Dr. Bridge, since I still don’t think the entire design, component quality include dosing pump and other part selection can be done by one person….He does not have SW, HW, CE, MFG engineering team there, by one person.. Man, I really doubt that….

I was immediately convinced when I saw his lab and tank, more than 20 different dosing pumps from consumer grade, industrial grade, to medical grade have been tested by him. Over 30 different tubes have been used and damage… Man, this guy is crazy…(it reminded me my previous boss Andy Grove words ..."Only the Paranoid Survive"....)

Anyway, Dr. Bridge asked me to try his prototype #4…. so I will continue update it when I try it myself….

Here is log example

Stay tuned…..

 

[Uglyman]

tuned and staying

 

[rwb500]

I was hoping for an explanation of how it works. To me it looks like it is a machine that performs a standard alkalinity titration. I think most people here will want to know if that is the case or not.

 

[jonwright]

So what if it is titration?

Not like ph is a big deal but folks are using automated tools for it.

 

[halperin]

I'm also very interested in this

 

[rwb500]

So what if it is titration?

Not like ph is a big deal but folks are using automated tools for it.

I am just curious. But the pH meter is a great example of why I am curious, because if pH could only be measured by titration, nobody would have a pH meter.

 

[shih87]

you bet. Titration is one key approach here.
It definitely is not like PH probe using voltmeter measure ion exchange...

Share some of his hard work in the pass....

Many try and error....(dead body pictures :lolspin

 

[Dapg8gt]

This definitely seems interesting but to be trusted it would have to be failsafe. I for one would love something that automatically regulates alk but putting something as critical as alk on automation 100% seems like a risky move and something I really don't think I would feel comfortable doing,ever.

I see the need for measuring but I would have a hard time trusting something to do it all for me when it comes to the thousands of dollars I have in my tank personally and how critical alk is.

Dont get me wrong I'm totally interested and I applaud him for working on something so diligently for the hobby and I feel it could be a valuable tool for the hobby in whole.. Thanks for sharing interested in seeing what comes of this..

 

[Gorgok]

This definitely seems interesting but to be trusted it would have to be failsafe. I for one would love something that automatically regulates alk but putting something as critical as alk on automation 100% seems like a risky move and something I really don't think I would feel comfortable doing,ever.

I wouldn't trust a single test (even manual) to alter my dosing regime for alk/cal, which already can be automated easily enough. What i would do instead is have the controller measure alk with the dosing scheme i had set, and when the measurement falls out of regulation inform me that the dose should probably be increased (and ideally by how much!). It would have to have some hysteresis to make sure its not just one wild reading after which it tells me that i need to double my dose...

If it works out long enough like that, sure it could be set to be able to automatically increase the dose. You could set limits, that it cant increase a dose more than 10% a month, so even if it goes off blindly it can't really cause damage.


I find the pictures of the dosing pump pile interesting. There is a pump with the line wrapped around the motor, which i assume was an attempt to use the heat of the motor running to help warm the reaction up (warm one of the chemicals). Other than taking longer with a colder reaction, is there any inaccuracy or such with colder reaction? If its just for the time, I don't see a point. I wouldn't really care how long (within reason, 10 minutes or an hour no problem) an automated alk reading takes, since it is automated. Just test daily with the sample taken at the same time and soon enough you have usable data.

 

[shih87]

This definitely seems interesting but to be trusted it would have to be failsafe. I for one would love something that automatically regulates alk but putting something as critical as alk on automation 100% seems like a risky move and something I really don't think I would feel comfortable doing,ever.

I see the need for measuring but I would have a hard time trusting something to do it all for me when it comes to the thousands of dollars I have in my tank personally and how critical alk is.

Dont get me wrong I'm totally interested and I applaud him for working on something so diligently for the hobby and I feel it could be a valuable tool for the hobby in whole.. Thanks for sharing interested in seeing what comes of this..

You are right. Dr. Bridge actually will provide two models, one with test, monitoring and correction, and second one with test and monitoring only. When I start to test his prototype, I will not using correction feature just yet.

 

[shih87]

I wouldn't trust a single test (even manual) to alter my dosing regime for alk/cal, which already can be automated easily enough. What i would do instead is have the controller measure alk with the dosing scheme i had set, and when the measurement falls out of regulation inform me that the dose should probably be increased (and ideally by how much!). It would have to have some hysteresis to make sure its not just one wild reading after which it tells me that i need to double my dose...

If it works out long enough like that, sure it could be set to be able to automatically increase the dose. You could set limits, that it cant increase a dose more than 10% a month, so even if it goes off blindly it can't really cause damage.


I find the pictures of the dosing pump pile interesting. There is a pump with the line wrapped around the motor, which i assume was an attempt to use the heat of the motor running to help warm the reaction up (warm one of the chemicals). Other than taking longer with a colder reaction, is there any inaccuracy or such with colder reaction? If its just for the time, I don't see a point. I wouldn't really care how long (within reason, 10 minutes or an hour no problem) an automated alk reading takes, since it is automated. Just test daily with the sample taken at the same time and soon enough you have usable data.

It seems you mean Alk automatic easy enough with a odder. That is right if you have a short vocation, less than 3 weeks like vocation. I always hope a doser can gradually increase dosing volume, but I don't remember my GHL can do so. I will go back to check. Or maybe that does not matter since KH only slight change (decrease more likely). Here is just a experimental DIY topic and we want to raise the bar, push to limit. Is it very practical for a reefer today? maybe not, but hey, worth a try and have fun...

Regarding the picture and suspected area, I did ask Dr. Bridge, he mentioned his just accidentally wrapping those tube like that, but tube swelling issue that off the volume accuracy is indeed one of the reason he tried so many different tubes.

Thanks for the test time spending view, that is true, it really doesn't matter much if automatic it. How about the size? what is the dimension most reefers may accept it? Let us know.

 

[EnderG60]

So correct me if Im wrong here, but from the pics and what you have said this is basically just an automated titration test.

It looks like it works like any current alk test but it uses dosing pumps to automate it, and Im guessing it uses a color sensor to evaluate/translate the results.

Is that about right?

 

[shaggss]

You should also post this in the Chemistry forum. Lots of smart people there could help.

 

[Gorgok]

How about the size? what is the dimension most reefers may accept it? Let us know.

That is an interesting thing to think about. Also where would it be mounted/placed, and just how automatic is it. If its drawing its own water for the test (completely automatic) then it needs to be near enough to the system that it will be with the other automation stuff we have.

Also if its drawing its own water with a dosing pump i would imagine it has to flush the line for a little bit to get a current sample instead of whatever is left in the line...

Sizing wise, a fully automatic thing mounted with other automation stuff (like outlet controllers) it can't be thicker than the outlet box with plugs in it. So something like 3" thick max? Footprint can be fairly large though without real issues I think.

 

[shih87]

So correct me if Im wrong here, but from the pics and what you have said this is basically just an automated titration test.

It looks like it works like any current alk test but it uses dosing pumps to automate it, and Im guessing it uses a color sensor to evaluate/translate the results.

Is that about right?

Your approach is a smart move and had been tried during his study. The result, color sensor can't survey for longevity test in tank environment, since outside lab environment it is easy smudge on the lens over time (salt water, moisture, etc…), even it can be overcome, but then the BOM cost will be way too high for what he want to achieve here.

You should also post this in the Chemistry forum. Lots of smart people there could help.

it is so embarrassing that you found I am no good on Chemistry beyond running a water test:headwally:... I will defintely preapre and come back for advices....

 

[deniz]

any update