Drain plumbing questions - converting a Marineland dual corner overflow to a Herbie

[South City]

I'm working out a final few planning details on my 180 gallon build before getting started. I'm trying to figure out how I want to handle my drains. I'm starting out with a used 180 gallon Marineland with dual corner overflows. Each corner overflow has two 1 inch bulkheads. As originally intended by Marineland, each overflow would use one of the bulkheads for a durso drain and the second one for a return line.

I'm not comfortable running two durso's on a tank this large. I plan to cycle around 2,000 gallons per hour.(large basement sump, refugium, and frag tanks will put total system water volume around 400 gallons) From what I can tell, 2,000 gallons per hour is right about the upper limit for what a pair of 1 inch durso's can handle.

Instead, I want to use both bulkheads run a herbie setup in each overflow and bring my return line up over the back of the tank. I have a few questions related to this. Should I use 1.5 inch pipe that reduces down to 1 inch via an adapter to get through the bulkhead like the current durso drains? Is there a benefit to using pipe larger than the bulkhead opening both on the tank side and the plumbing side on its way down to the sump?

I was also considering placing the full siphon drain opening only a few inches from the bottom of the corner overflow box to avoid having a lot of standing/uncirculated water in those 2 foot tall and narrow boxes. Other than draining extra water down to the sump when the return pump is off, is there a reason why I'd want to place the full siphon drain closer to the surface of the box like most others do? I'll be using a 150 gallon water trough as my main sump so an extra few gallons draining down when the pump shuts off isn't a concern. The only potential issue that I can see by placing the main drain close to the bottom of the corner overflow is that the entire tank could drain if there was a leak between the seal of the overflow box and the tank while the return pump was off.

 

[Pife]

I would use 1 inch pipe and gate valves on both siphon drains. I would keep the siphon high incase your overflow fails and power goes out. IMHO

 

[South City]

Thanks. I was inclined to keep it 1 inch throughout since I have limited space for plumbing down through the walls and it would be easier to fit 5 one inch lines through that space instead of 4 1.5 inch lines along with another 1 inch pipe. I was just wondering if I was missing out on some concept in drain theory since a lot of builds that i see use larger pipes on either side of the bulkhead.(including Marineland themselves who supplied the 1.5 inch durso's along with an adapter to make them fit through the 1 inch bulkhead)

Although it's very unlikely for the overflow seal to fail while the return pump was off, I probably shouldn't play with fire by placing my drain so low in the box.

Does anyone else have one of these Marineland dual corner overflows? With the drain at the top of the box, does the uncirculated water nearly two feet down ever become an issue? It seems like a natural place for detritus and other waste to collect. Are there other ways to deal with that rather than placing the drain opening towards the bottom?

I would use 1 inch pipe and gate valves on both siphon drains. I would keep the siphon high incase your overflow fails and power goes out. IMHO

 

[smoothdog]

Are you planning to run 2 separate siphon lines? If so, how do you plan to balance the flow between the 2? It's pretty much impossible to do so. I would do some research on dual overflow herbie/beananimal overflows, but if it were me, I would either run one pipe from each into a 1.5 in line with a single valve then use the remaining 2 drains as the trickle and emergency drains (preferred), or alternately use a single drain for the siphon (you'd be amazed how much flow a siphon can handle, especially if running to the basement) then the remaining lines for trickle drain, emergency drain and return line.

 

[smoothdog]

Oh, and I have my herbie siphon drain about half way up in the overflow and have no detritus issues at all (tank has been up a year and a half).

 

[South City]

I have checked out quite a few threads. There doesn't seem to be a lot of consensus out there when trying to run two full siphons in one tank. Some were saying to never T off two primary drains into a single valve while others said it was okay. I did read a few threads where they were able to balance the flow with two full siphons using different methods. The one method that I recall involved having a traditional Herbie in one of the overflows and then just a siphon drain and a return line in the other overflow. In the overflow box with the siphon and the return line, he adjusted the level so that the water line in the box was nearly level with water line of the tank. He was then able to adjust the other siphon drain with the emergency trickle drain in the traditional herbie manner where the water level in the box was about an inch below the tank water line and provided just a trickle of water into the emergency drain whose opening was about 6 inches higher than the full siphon.

How much water could I move through a single full 1 inch siphon with a drop of about 8 to 10 feet down to the basement? If it's enough, I've considered removing one of the corner overflows altogether and just capping off the two openings.(they are ugly as heck) I was hesitant though. I am worried that the glass might be permanently marked/scored where the corner overflow was attached. Has anyone ever removed one of those factory installed corner overflows?

Are you planning to run 2 separate siphon lines? If so, how do you plan to balance the flow between the 2? It's pretty much impossible to do so. I would do some research on dual overflow herbie/beananimal overflows, but if it were me, I would either run one pipe from each into a 1.5 in line with a single valve then use the remaining 2 drains as the trickle and emergency drains (preferred), or alternately use a single drain for the siphon (you'd be amazed how much flow a siphon can handle, especially if running to the basement) then the remaining lines for trickle drain, emergency drain and return line.

 

[smoothdog]

I'm running north of 1000gph through my 1" line (3\4" bulkhead) and the valve is mostly closed.

 

[South City]

That is good to know. I'd like to run 2,000 gph with the capacity to run at least another 1,000. How far of a drop does your drain have from the bulkhead to the sump?

I'm running north of 1000gph through my 1" line (3\4" bulkhead) and the valve is mostly closed.

 

[South City]

Another quick question related to your setup. You are running slightly bigger pipe than your bulkhead opening.(1" pipe and 3/4" bulkhead) Is there a benefit to doing that?

I'm running north of 1000gph through my 1" line (3\4" bulkhead) and the valve is mostly closed.

 

[Reeferhead]

The Marineland overflow seals can and do fail. On my 150, bubble algae growing on the backside of the silicone within the overflow compartment, actually separated the plastic overflow from the tank glass. The silicone used by marineland on the overflow was ridiculously thin and only applied to the front of the overflow, basically just holding it in place. If your overflow is missing a bead of silicone on the inside then add one now while the tank is still dry and trust me keep those standpipes tall. Better yet do what I did and completely remove and reinstall the overflow correctly with silicone applied to the edge of the overflow itself, followed up front and back.

 

[South City]

That is good to know. Thank you. I may wind up removing one of the overflows anyway if I feel confident that I can get enough flow from a one inch pipe running at a full siphon down about 8 feet to the basement. My only concern about removing it is that the glass may be messed up where they attached it originally.

I'll definitely be checking the current seals though to make sure they look right before this tank goes wet.

Thanks again.

The Marineland overflow seals can and do fail. On my 150, bubble algae growing on the backside of the silicone within the overflow compartment, actually separated the plastic overflow from the tank glass. The silicone used by marineland on the overflow was ridiculously thin and only applied to the front of the overflow, basically just holding it in place. If your overflow is missing a bead of silicone on the inside then add one now while the tank is still dry and trust me keep those standpipes tall. Better yet do what I did and completely remove and reinstall the overflow correctly with silicone applied to the edge of the overflow itself, followed up front and back.

 

[smoothdog]

That is good to know. I'd like to run 2,000 gph with the capacity to run at least another 1,000. How far of a drop does your drain have from the bulkhead to the sump?

My sump is on the floor so the drop from the top of my overflow to the sump is at least 12'.

Another quick question related to your setup. You are running slightly bigger pipe than your bulkhead opening.(1" pipe and 3/4" bulkhead) Is there a benefit to doing that?

The advantage of having larger pipe is more water weight in the line. This translates to more force pulled on the siphon and higher flow capability even though there is a restriction at the bulkhead. The downside is there is a choke point in the line where snails etc can be trapped so I have a mesh screen over mine just in case.

 

[South City]

Thanks for explaining. That makes sense!

 

[Tigé21v]

Don't know if you decided which way you were planning on going, but you may want to check out BeanAnimal's site. May help answer your questions.
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/hydraulics-for-the-aquarist.aspx

 

[South City]

Thanks! Some good stuff there. I hadn't visited his site previously.

Don't know if you decided which way you were planning on going, but you may want to check out BeanAnimal's site. May help answer your questions.
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/hydraulics-for-the-aquarist.aspx

 

[Brian01]

There's been some good advice already on trashing the marineland overflow, I'd go a step further than resealing it though, throw it out and get or build a wide box. They can be had on Ebay or other sites... Check some of the builds around here with Herbie or Beananimal setups for ideas.

 

[South City]

Thank you. I've considered something similar to what you are suggesting. Setting aside the expense & effort, it would certainly be the most professional way to go with the best long term results. I'm not sure that I hate these corner overflows enough to bear that extra work and expense though.

I'm still trying to decide which way to go. I keep going back and forth. More than likely, I'm going to leave the corner overflows in place and go with some sort of modified herbie taking advantage of the 4 one inch holes that are already drilled in the bottom. I just need to confirm how many gph the overflows themselves can handle. The marineland documentation states 750 gph per overflow. But I believe they are referencing how much a durso can drain through a one inch bulkhead, not the actual maximum amount of water per hour that can move through the overflow openings at a full siphon with a large drop.

If I leave the corner overflows in place, I think I would wind up trying to cover them with some sort of modified rock wall. Nothing too extravagant, just some small pieces of rubble rock and sand to help them blend in with aquascape and not stick out so conspicuously. I'm not a fan of the eggcrate and pond foam method, so I'd need to find an alternate way to secure the rock and sand to the black plastic surface of the overflows.

There's been some good advice already on trashing the marineland overflow, I'd go a step further than resealing it though, throw it out and get or build a wide box. They can be had on Ebay or other sites... Check some of the builds around here with Herbie or Beananimal setups for ideas.

 

[Brian01]

Thank you. I've considered something similar to what you are suggesting. Setting aside the expense & effort, it would certainly be the most professional way to go with the best long term results. I'm not sure that I hate these corner overflows enough to bear that extra work and expense though.

Ha, that's the difference I guess, I do hate those corner overflows enough! It only took me about 20-30 minutes (plus silicone curing time) from start to finish though, its really not that much work to adapt one of those ebay boxes, and another advantage is you can significantly increase the max surface skimming flow rate of your overflow... The marineland ones don't really have all that many slots, even with a dualie. All depends on your desires and needs for your tank...

Check out this site, there is some discussion about max flow rates....

http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-...method-basics/

 

[EDJFA]

Thank you. I've considered something similar to what you are suggesting. Setting aside the expense & effort, it would certainly be the most professional way to go with the best long term results. I'm not sure that I hate these corner overflows enough to bear that extra work and expense though.

I'm still trying to decide which way to go. I keep going back and forth. More than likely, I'm going to leave the corner overflows in place and go with some sort of modified herbie taking advantage of the 4 one inch holes that are already drilled in the bottom. I just need to confirm how many gph the overflows themselves can handle. The marineland documentation states 750 gph per overflow. But I believe they are referencing how much a durso can drain through a one inch bulkhead, not the actual maximum amount of water per hour that can move through the overflow openings at a full siphon with a large drop.

If I leave the corner overflows in place, I think I would wind up trying to cover them with some sort of modified rock wall. Nothing too extravagant, just some small pieces of rubble rock and sand to help them blend in with aquascape and not stick out so conspicuously. I'm not a fan of the eggcrate and pond foam method, so I'd need to find an alternate way to secure the rock and sand to the black plastic surface of the overflows.

I have a similar setup to yours, except my overflows are mounted on the back instead of the corners.

I have mine set against the wall, so a BeanAnimal type setup was out of the question for me. I spent hours reading about how others had plumbed their tanks.

I opted for a siphon pipe and one emergency overflow pipe in one overflow, and then another siphon pipe and one return in the other. My return splits off to feed the part of the sump that is supposed to be a fuge, but in reality is just another place for additional rocks.

I have gate valves on both of the siphon lines. I have to fiddle with them once in awhile. When I have the balance right between the return and the siphon, it's dead silent. Loudest thing in the tank is the pistol shrimp. Every so often, like this morning, I get a little water coming down the emergency overflow pipe. I have that pipe terminating about 10" off the water line so that when there is water draining through it, I know it immediately. The other two siphon pipes terminate below the water line in the sump, thus the silence.

You can make those overflow boxes work if you try hard enough.

 

[South City]

.

Check out this site, there is some discussion about max flow rates....

http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-...method-basics/

Thanks. That was a good read.