DSB Heresy
- Thread starter ldrhawke
- Start date
I think the novel point here is the small holes in the PVC grid allowing a large pressure drop accross the plenum to achieve a flushing like effect with minimal "short circuiting". Other methods / designs do not achieve this. Also although ldrhawke proposed frequent draining, he readily admitted that the ideal / optimal interval to drain waste is unknown and must be determined through experimentation.
A bulk head at the bottom of the tank with an undergravel filter or any high cross sectional drain will not achieve the same effect at all due to massive short circuiting. It is the concept of PVC grid with multiple very small holes that is the "novel" approach that doesn't IMO deserve to be easily dismissed as "been there / done that",
A bulk head at the bottom of the tank with an undergravel filter or any high cross sectional drain will not achieve the same effect at all due to massive short circuiting. It is the concept of PVC grid with multiple very small holes that is the "novel" approach that doesn't IMO deserve to be easily dismissed as "been there / done that",
The fact that something "new" is being tried is awesome, it contributes to progress . I have nothing to say against that and am happy to see people in the hobby like ldrhawke actually invest
time and money to contribute. Again others have played around with this idea. The whole idea of draining small amounts of water is far from new my friend. It has been done and is considered a waste of time and risky. With time we will see. You'll see. I'll see.
But do recall ldrhawke said that dsb/plenums don't work and are not efficient. That is quite the statement!! Well I agree only if the dsb/plenum was not set up properly. Dsb has done the test of time and does work if done properly. Depth and circulation are critical and the "septic" water under the plenum is the work horse behind the plenum. The whole idea behind a plenum is this . It is actually a complicated chemical theory that is beyond the scope of this post but worth looking into and understanding. It's more than 2 bodies wanting to be 1. And if done properly it does work and incredibly effectively. SO much so at times it is hard to believe.
I think ldrhawke is doing something great by trying something not known to him. But myself, would never try it. That is just me and JMO. I in no way want to bash ldrhawke and respect him for the work he is doing and his willingness to share with us.
If we were all like him, things would move faster.
Only time will tell, ONLY time :rollface:
time and money to contribute. Again others have played around with this idea. The whole idea of draining small amounts of water is far from new my friend. It has been done and is considered a waste of time and risky. With time we will see. You'll see. I'll see.
But do recall ldrhawke said that dsb/plenums don't work and are not efficient. That is quite the statement!! Well I agree only if the dsb/plenum was not set up properly. Dsb has done the test of time and does work if done properly. Depth and circulation are critical and the "septic" water under the plenum is the work horse behind the plenum. The whole idea behind a plenum is this . It is actually a complicated chemical theory that is beyond the scope of this post but worth looking into and understanding. It's more than 2 bodies wanting to be 1. And if done properly it does work and incredibly effectively. SO much so at times it is hard to believe.
I think ldrhawke is doing something great by trying something not known to him. But myself, would never try it. That is just me and JMO. I in no way want to bash ldrhawke and respect him for the work he is doing and his willingness to share with us.
If we were all like him, things would move faster.
Only time will tell, ONLY time :rollface:
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Oi!
ldrhawke, so what you are saying in a nutshell is that you are daily taking water from the bottom of your tank under the substrate, that is full of 'poop' and removing it from the tank, allowing 'fresher' water with 'poop' to continue to filter down to the bottom thus removing the 'possible build up of problem chemicals' from the substrate?
If that is what you are saying then, Damn, that is what I thought 2 years ago when I was thinking hot and heavy about DSB's and 'plenum' systems and the 'possible' build up of 'nasties' in the lower reaches of the substrate. The only thing that I was worried about is that with the constant replacing of low O2 water with O2 water then the low O2 bacteria could never get a foot hold in the substrate since the O2 was constantly being replaced with the 'fresher' water.
If your system seems to be working then the 'need' for the low O2 bacteria has been mostly illiminated.
Have I got it correct?
Cheers!
nigle
!~!
ldrhawke, so what you are saying in a nutshell is that you are daily taking water from the bottom of your tank under the substrate, that is full of 'poop' and removing it from the tank, allowing 'fresher' water with 'poop' to continue to filter down to the bottom thus removing the 'possible build up of problem chemicals' from the substrate?
If that is what you are saying then, Damn, that is what I thought 2 years ago when I was thinking hot and heavy about DSB's and 'plenum' systems and the 'possible' build up of 'nasties' in the lower reaches of the substrate. The only thing that I was worried about is that with the constant replacing of low O2 water with O2 water then the low O2 bacteria could never get a foot hold in the substrate since the O2 was constantly being replaced with the 'fresher' water.
If your system seems to be working then the 'need' for the low O2 bacteria has been mostly illiminated.
Have I got it correct?
Cheers!
nigle
!~!
tankslave
New member
you never can Eliminate the need for low O2 bacteria. You need those to convert nitrate to N2 gas. That's just a fact. The fact that the plenum works is because it keeps a store of O2 BELOW the sand, thus "buffering" the gradient across the sandbed, and Eliminating the potential for anerobic areas where hydrogen sulfide can be produced. hydrogen sulfide pockets are what cause sandbeds to crash.
If you have a DSB, i would use a plenum, however, i am still conviced that a cleaner and more SIMPLE solution is to use a starboard bottom and high flow rates to prevent any nutrients from settling in the tank.
If you have a DSB, i would use a plenum, however, i am still conviced that a cleaner and more SIMPLE solution is to use a starboard bottom and high flow rates to prevent any nutrients from settling in the tank.
tankslave
New member
Besides, if you can run a reef aquarium, with lots of fish and corals WITHOUT ANY SAND, or any other bio filter other than the rocks, why the heck would you put sand in your tank, other than it looks pretty....
Why keep a nutrient sink?
Go back to the Berlin system: LR+Skimmer. Its all you need.
Why keep a nutrient sink?
Go back to the Berlin system: LR+Skimmer. Its all you need.
salty joe
Active member
why the heck would you put sand in your tank, other than it looks pretty....
If anesthetics were not important, there would be very few reef tanks.
I also enjoy the sand for all the creatures that live in it.
I once had a breeding pair of jawfish that were absolutely fascinating.
If anesthetics were not important, there would be very few reef tanks.
I also enjoy the sand for all the creatures that live in it.
I once had a breeding pair of jawfish that were absolutely fascinating.
Richard Francis
In Memoriam
tankslave said:
Well I for one certainly respect your opinion based on your many years of experience. How many sand bed tanks have you run?
By the way, you don't need to rape the ocean for live rock if you have a DSB. Many more sites for anarobic activity. HSF does not cause DSB's to crash, but are a symptom of the failure. Lack of active infauna is the cause.
tankslave
New member
Well, I've had one sandbed, and still have it, but that will change soon.
Secondly, much of the live rock that you buy is actually cultured.
Hydrogen Sulfide is toxic to your infauna. Once there is a pocket, they don't touch it and you loose your bioturbation in that area. DSB matra calls for regular additon of Detrivore kits. You may like looking the life between the sandbed and the front glass, but that's the bristleworms and such that are feeding off the life that lives between the glass and the sand because there is light reflected in that area. Take a scoop from somewhere in the middle of your sandbed and see how much infauna you see.
I think starboard tanks with live rock are very asthetically pleasing. Most of the successful tanks I have seen have had 10x more LR than LS.
Take a look here for more reasons why.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=223301
I know everyone tends to defend what they have established, otherwise they would be forced to change it. Just keep your mind open to ideas that might go against orthodoxy. This thread is called "DSB Heresy"
I can't crank up the flow on my pump to full power because it blows sand on all my coral. Its just seems logical that a reef not have sand on it. But that's just my opinion.
Secondly, much of the live rock that you buy is actually cultured.
Hydrogen Sulfide is toxic to your infauna. Once there is a pocket, they don't touch it and you loose your bioturbation in that area. DSB matra calls for regular additon of Detrivore kits. You may like looking the life between the sandbed and the front glass, but that's the bristleworms and such that are feeding off the life that lives between the glass and the sand because there is light reflected in that area. Take a scoop from somewhere in the middle of your sandbed and see how much infauna you see.
I think starboard tanks with live rock are very asthetically pleasing. Most of the successful tanks I have seen have had 10x more LR than LS.
Take a look here for more reasons why.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=223301
I know everyone tends to defend what they have established, otherwise they would be forced to change it. Just keep your mind open to ideas that might go against orthodoxy. This thread is called "DSB Heresy"
I can't crank up the flow on my pump to full power because it blows sand on all my coral. Its just seems logical that a reef not have sand on it. But that's just my opinion.
tankslave
New member
I wouldn't talk about "raping the ocean" on a reefer thread. If you have a tank with one fish in it, there was about 5-10 fish that died on the way so that your fish could get to your tank. Live Rock is relatively benign in comparison to what goes on in the tropical fish trade.
But that's a whole other moral discussion.
But that's a whole other moral discussion.
Richard Francis
In Memoriam
tankslave said:
What you would or would not do is no concern of mine. You speak as if you have many years of experience, but are probably only 18 -19 years old. Why would anybody rely on your experience? If you can't get past the mortality rate of marine animals, then you should get out of the hobby instead of giving lectures based on 7-8 hours of experience.
Shoestring Reefer
New member
Actually, it has been my experience and the experience of many others that a sandbed is required for keeping pods, and pods are required for mandarins. I yanked my DSB to grow shrooms and zoos on the glass (whick looks awesome in other people's tanks, but I'd rather have pods) my pods dissappeared, so I still don't have a mandarin. With ample pods, everything I've read about mandarins says they are a robust fish, and you don't have to worry about feeding them when you go on vacation. Like anything else, you just have to know where they come from. Plus, IMO they are gorgeous. So that's why the heck someone would put sand in their tank.tankslave said:
By the way-when I yanked my sandbed, it was Bomber who first told me I would loose my pods. When I asked why I lost my pods (months later), it was Dr. Ron who pointed out my missing sandbed. So no matter what side of the "DSB/BB" argument you are on (if you give a crap) either side will say you need some sand for pods.
Let us not generalize, grasshopper. I have 3 fish in my 125-a pajama cardinal and 2 clowns. All three were captive bred. The clowns were ORA, I don't know who bred the cardinal but the fish was tiny and the price was not.tankslave said:
From what I understand, cardinals are not often bred because of the high price needed. All my rock was either made by me, dry limestone-type rock, or bought from local clubmembers who had some to spare.So, while I plan on a some wild-caught fish in the future (maybe this year, maybe not), I wouldn't say I've been raping the ocean. I eat more fish in a year than I buy, anyways. Someday I'll get that mandarin, maybe a copper banded butterfly, which is a baitfish.
tankslave
New member
Richard Francis said:
I am 24 years old and have a college degree in physics from UCLA. I have 2.5 years of experience. I started my tank in a dorm room, on what I could afford. This isn't a p*ssing contest, don't make it one. People come here to learn from the experience of others, including you and me. If you have something to contribute, please do.
Excuse me while I step out of the way of the P, and I don't mean phosphate.
tankslave is right, he's been presenting his information in a well informed manner, and backing up his ideas with his experiences. that's what this board is all about. Once in a while people post an opinion or two, if you don't agree then you can state your opinion as well. Attacking someone with personal barbs based on conjecture will go nowhere and will ultimately get the post shut down, that sucks for everyone.
In this case tankslave was pointing out a valid argument over wild caught fish, it's true that many wild fish die to get just one healthy one to you. This is a topic that should concern everyone in this hobby.
Okay you may go back to arguing over whether or not to have a stinky sand bed in your tank or not. That's not meant to provoke, they do smell.
tankslave is right, he's been presenting his information in a well informed manner, and backing up his ideas with his experiences. that's what this board is all about. Once in a while people post an opinion or two, if you don't agree then you can state your opinion as well. Attacking someone with personal barbs based on conjecture will go nowhere and will ultimately get the post shut down, that sucks for everyone.
In this case tankslave was pointing out a valid argument over wild caught fish, it's true that many wild fish die to get just one healthy one to you. This is a topic that should concern everyone in this hobby.
Okay you may go back to arguing over whether or not to have a stinky sand bed in your tank or not. That's not meant to provoke, they do smell.
Shoestring Reefer
New member
Grace Park, most recently on "Battlestar Galactica". The downside of that show is that they have too many characters, so she doesn't get enough camera time.
