DSB in a bucket for nitrate control
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
First let me thank Calfo and all the other very patient and passionate contributors to this thread. After 3 meals, half a dozen Advil, and a page and a half of notes I'm through all 40 pages of postings.
Thus I am going forward with RDSB's on two ~200 gallon FOWLR BB systems. No corals, few to no inverts, just fish.... In addition to skimmers, bioballs, and 100 micron socks I want to do the RDSB's but am working on the volume of sand needed.
Of course I recall Mr. Calfo's data on a 2000 gallon system doing great on a 55 gallon tank RDSB. However we don't know what kind of bioload or what other filtration was involved so there comes the dilema.
See my signature for bioload, currently I'm keeping nitrates down via water changes but its getting expensive (that or I need to buy stock in Instand Ocean). For predator/FOWLR bioloads what would be a solid/safe amount of RDSB for a 200 gallon system? I'm thinking around 30 gallons? If a 50-75 gallon system of reef/semi reef bioload does well with a 5 gallon IO bucket then we are talking 20 gallons of a 200 gallon system at the same proportional bioload. Since FOWLR bioload is considerably higher (yeah, the puffer poos ALOT) even with conservative feeding it seems 30-40 gallons of RDSB would be needed to really take out the nitrates per 200 gallon system. Thoughts?
Obviously, aragonite is preferred, if I can FIND a non LFS/aquatic source I'd be elated but locally so far its a no go at Lowe's, Home Depot, Pike's Nursery, Ace Hardware, etc. I've got silica sand coming out my eyeballs but no aragonite short of LFS channels. I've read the last 40 pages so I know its doable with silica, but I'd rather do the project to an ideal then go half buggered. LFS/internet pricing makes budget nearly impossible at $22 per 30 lbs for carib/aragamax/etc.
Filtration flow is as follows: overflows (2x) dump through two 100 micron socks (changed/washed daily) into the sump. Protein skimmer does its thing...don't want to mess up its mojo. Return pump(s) in sump at approx 18-20 hourly turnover. 1 powerhead to run a small bit of bioballs as an emergency nitrite/ammonia eliminator. Finally a powerhead that runs the RDSB which sits next to the tank. One tank is 2 years up/stable the other is new.
RDSB = Rubbermaid bin with 1/2" wide zip ties for reinforcement (just to be safe). A piece of plywood with a tablecloth to cover the thing so resident girlfriend doesn't hate it. Set fishy supplies on makeshift tablestand. Enjoy not having to change 50% water monthly....
Thoughts?
Thus I am going forward with RDSB's on two ~200 gallon FOWLR BB systems. No corals, few to no inverts, just fish.... In addition to skimmers, bioballs, and 100 micron socks I want to do the RDSB's but am working on the volume of sand needed.
Of course I recall Mr. Calfo's data on a 2000 gallon system doing great on a 55 gallon tank RDSB. However we don't know what kind of bioload or what other filtration was involved so there comes the dilema.
See my signature for bioload, currently I'm keeping nitrates down via water changes but its getting expensive (that or I need to buy stock in Instand Ocean). For predator/FOWLR bioloads what would be a solid/safe amount of RDSB for a 200 gallon system? I'm thinking around 30 gallons? If a 50-75 gallon system of reef/semi reef bioload does well with a 5 gallon IO bucket then we are talking 20 gallons of a 200 gallon system at the same proportional bioload. Since FOWLR bioload is considerably higher (yeah, the puffer poos ALOT) even with conservative feeding it seems 30-40 gallons of RDSB would be needed to really take out the nitrates per 200 gallon system. Thoughts?
Obviously, aragonite is preferred, if I can FIND a non LFS/aquatic source I'd be elated but locally so far its a no go at Lowe's, Home Depot, Pike's Nursery, Ace Hardware, etc. I've got silica sand coming out my eyeballs but no aragonite short of LFS channels. I've read the last 40 pages so I know its doable with silica, but I'd rather do the project to an ideal then go half buggered. LFS/internet pricing makes budget nearly impossible at $22 per 30 lbs for carib/aragamax/etc.
Filtration flow is as follows: overflows (2x) dump through two 100 micron socks (changed/washed daily) into the sump. Protein skimmer does its thing...don't want to mess up its mojo. Return pump(s) in sump at approx 18-20 hourly turnover. 1 powerhead to run a small bit of bioballs as an emergency nitrite/ammonia eliminator. Finally a powerhead that runs the RDSB which sits next to the tank. One tank is 2 years up/stable the other is new.
RDSB = Rubbermaid bin with 1/2" wide zip ties for reinforcement (just to be safe). A piece of plywood with a tablecloth to cover the thing so resident girlfriend doesn't hate it. Set fishy supplies on makeshift tablestand. Enjoy not having to change 50% water monthly....
Thoughts?
Kelvin, are you blocking all light to the RDSB?
You need to do this to prevent any algae from growing in it.
Also, you need to make sure the flow going through the container is fast enough to prevent detritus from settling on the sand and breaking down.
Sounds like you might have both issues.
LRS078,
I have just set one up that closly matches your discription. It is a 18gallon rubbermaid, with 130lbs of standard yellow playsand and a 1/4" layer of CC on top to limit sandstorms and to provide some buffering, on my 210 reef /100 gal sump. I used a 3/4" bulkhead in and a 1" out with a ball valve to control the flow from a rio 1700 pump. I currently am just using the lid as my upper support but the idea of zip ties sonds like a better idea.
Mines been up for just over two weeks now and this weekend I'll be checking levels to get an idea if it's starting to help. I think from my reading that it will be a month before real results start to show. Once I do start to see the results I will also be adding one to our 180 FO that tends to have a bit higher tollerance but it will still be good to get it under control.
-Glen
I have just set one up that closly matches your discription. It is a 18gallon rubbermaid, with 130lbs of standard yellow playsand and a 1/4" layer of CC on top to limit sandstorms and to provide some buffering, on my 210 reef /100 gal sump. I used a 3/4" bulkhead in and a 1" out with a ball valve to control the flow from a rio 1700 pump. I currently am just using the lid as my upper support but the idea of zip ties sonds like a better idea.
Mines been up for just over two weeks now and this weekend I'll be checking levels to get an idea if it's starting to help. I think from my reading that it will be a month before real results start to show. Once I do start to see the results I will also be adding one to our 180 FO that tends to have a bit higher tollerance but it will still be good to get it under control.
-Glen
Hey all,
Just wanted to voice my experience using the remote deep sand bed.
My 125gal tank is lightly stocked 7 fish (well fed) with maybe 10 soft corals. Theres maybe 30 pounds of live rock ( seed rock) the rest is home made stuff, even though you really can't tell now as it's pretty much encrusted with coraline algae. I took care of phosphates with phosbane, even though they never went beyond 1 PPM now it's 0 testing with Salferts test kit. But my nitrates were in the 25 ppm range and was doing water changes to try and reduce this level, but with the feeding I was hovering in that range for a month and even cutting down on feeding really never managed the nitrates very well.
I figured I would give the bucket idea a shot. I had an old external pond filter that uses a spray bar to feed water into it and thought this is perfect item for my application. The dimensions of the filter are 20L X 16W X 14H this gave me 320 sq in. of surface area which is a bit more than my best bucket at 15X15. I had a small fountain pump that gives me 160 Gal at 2 foot of head which I run wide open. Anyways to make a long story short within 2 weeks my nitrates have dropped from 20-25 ppm to 5 ppm tested this morning
. Not to bad considering the time period.
The sand I used is aragonite Carib Sea sea floor special grade around 50LB. and filled the filter to about 1.5 inch of the inlet. I placed an elbow on the bulkhead for draining (inside of filter ) so I could adjust the level of the water. so it flows at the level of the inlet 1.5 in. Basically there's 1.5in of water over the sand bed being fed by the spray bar on the width (16 in.) at a nice even flow over the length. The sand depth is around 12 or so in. So far I'm very pleased and will let you know when I hit 0.
LRS078 "Of course I recall Mr. Calfo's data on a 2000 gallon system doing great on a 55 gallon tank RDSB. However we don't know what kind of bioload or what other filtration was involved so there comes the dilema."
It was is a store system and I assume a good bio load if I recall properly.
Not to hijack this thread but.
Just a personal comment. I know this hobby can become expensive and DIY cuts down on some of the cost. But please remember that your LFS needs to make some money. Livestock is not a huge money maker in general and requires a lot of time and expense. From personal experience I have seen many people ask for recommendations and advice on setting up there tanks just to turn around and make their purchase elsewhere to save a couple of bucks. Mail order, Big Box stores etc. don't support your hobby, all they do is is price and sell. If your fair with the LFS store when it comes to purchasing your dry goods, I'm sure the owner or managers will be more than happy to work with you to make it a bit more affordable. Remember a good LFS works hard to make money and have a lot of expense's to cover to stay in operation. If they continue to get cut out of the loop for a few bucks, your only hurting yourself.
If a moderator feels this part of my post is out of line I won't be insulted if it's erased.
Best regards
Just wanted to voice my experience using the remote deep sand bed.
My 125gal tank is lightly stocked 7 fish (well fed) with maybe 10 soft corals. Theres maybe 30 pounds of live rock ( seed rock) the rest is home made stuff, even though you really can't tell now as it's pretty much encrusted with coraline algae. I took care of phosphates with phosbane, even though they never went beyond 1 PPM now it's 0 testing with Salferts test kit. But my nitrates were in the 25 ppm range and was doing water changes to try and reduce this level, but with the feeding I was hovering in that range for a month and even cutting down on feeding really never managed the nitrates very well.
I figured I would give the bucket idea a shot. I had an old external pond filter that uses a spray bar to feed water into it and thought this is perfect item for my application. The dimensions of the filter are 20L X 16W X 14H this gave me 320 sq in. of surface area which is a bit more than my best bucket at 15X15. I had a small fountain pump that gives me 160 Gal at 2 foot of head which I run wide open. Anyways to make a long story short within 2 weeks my nitrates have dropped from 20-25 ppm to 5 ppm tested this morning
. Not to bad considering the time period.
The sand I used is aragonite Carib Sea sea floor special grade around 50LB. and filled the filter to about 1.5 inch of the inlet. I placed an elbow on the bulkhead for draining (inside of filter ) so I could adjust the level of the water. so it flows at the level of the inlet 1.5 in. Basically there's 1.5in of water over the sand bed being fed by the spray bar on the width (16 in.) at a nice even flow over the length. The sand depth is around 12 or so in. So far I'm very pleased and will let you know when I hit 0.
LRS078 "Of course I recall Mr. Calfo's data on a 2000 gallon system doing great on a 55 gallon tank RDSB. However we don't know what kind of bioload or what other filtration was involved so there comes the dilema."
It was is a store system and I assume a good bio load if I recall properly.
Not to hijack this thread but.
Just a personal comment. I know this hobby can become expensive and DIY cuts down on some of the cost. But please remember that your LFS needs to make some money. Livestock is not a huge money maker in general and requires a lot of time and expense. From personal experience I have seen many people ask for recommendations and advice on setting up there tanks just to turn around and make their purchase elsewhere to save a couple of bucks. Mail order, Big Box stores etc. don't support your hobby, all they do is is price and sell. If your fair with the LFS store when it comes to purchasing your dry goods, I'm sure the owner or managers will be more than happy to work with you to make it a bit more affordable. Remember a good LFS works hard to make money and have a lot of expense's to cover to stay in operation. If they continue to get cut out of the loop for a few bucks, your only hurting yourself.
If a moderator feels this part of my post is out of line I won't be insulted if it's erased.
Best regards
I mean zero disrespect to LFS or online fish sites whatsoever....but no matter HOW good a deal you get on aragamax or similar it is still in the $20-$25 a 30lb bag range. There is no way they can compete with $2-$5 a bag at a hardware store. I got the information online/did all the research here on this board and WWM, and I actually do quite a bit to support my favorite LFS....just ask em. I'll be happy to plug them but I believe that is not permitted on here so I'll have to stay mum. To buy some supplies there vs online, they get the nod. To increase the cost of a project by an order of magnitude is something else. I am sure they would rather I spend the money I save on fish and whatnot....but their honesty/no BS is a large part of why I like them.
This is a case of completely different products (at least from a marketing standpoint) made of the same essential ingredient. Since we are after only the ingredient itself its like pricing hikari versus fresh market grocery seafood by weight. Both are good stuff but its not apples to apples on price.
This is a case of completely different products (at least from a marketing standpoint) made of the same essential ingredient. Since we are after only the ingredient itself its like pricing hikari versus fresh market grocery seafood by weight. Both are good stuff but its not apples to apples on price.
krazyplace
New member
My right-of-passage is complete (again)... Read all 40+ pages.
This is a good read and well worth the many hours it took. A quick word of advice to anyone who hasn't read it from the beginning... do it! Anthony covers pretty much everything you need to know in his early dialog.
Thanks to everyone who spent the time to read/attribute to this thread. I'm sure I'll have as good results as the rest of you. I am in the process of rebuilding (due to relocation) and I’m going to do the RDSB instead of my refugium.
This is a good read and well worth the many hours it took. A quick word of advice to anyone who hasn't read it from the beginning... do it! Anthony covers pretty much everything you need to know in his early dialog.
Thanks to everyone who spent the time to read/attribute to this thread. I'm sure I'll have as good results as the rest of you. I am in the process of rebuilding (due to relocation) and I’m going to do the RDSB instead of my refugium.
LRS078 , Sorry if you had the impression I was pointing a finger at you.
It just happened that my comment was after repleying to something you asked.
It was meant as a general comment about all products that we use in our hobby. I know there are very good replacement items that are a lot less expensive. I can certainly understand wanting to save 50 - 90 % on the cost of any given item. I just read a lot of post were people try and cut so many corners on every little item and I have to ask myself why they go to such lenghts for a 10 to 20% savings and lock out their LFS. I enjoy going to my favorite fish stores and try my best to support them whenever possible. The people I deal with have always tried to save me money whenever possible, sometimes they are a little more expensive than online vendors or stores that sell like products, but I would rather give my money to the guy that actually makes a living from and supports my hobby instead of saving 20%.
My comment was just a little heads up to those that seem to go out of there way, for a a few bucks saved. A good example would be going to Petsmart or Wallmart to purchase a pump that is sold for 20% less than at your LFS. Sure you could do it, but is it a good idea? I guess that's something everyone needs to ask themselves and is a personal choice.
It just happened that my comment was after repleying to something you asked.
It was meant as a general comment about all products that we use in our hobby. I know there are very good replacement items that are a lot less expensive. I can certainly understand wanting to save 50 - 90 % on the cost of any given item. I just read a lot of post were people try and cut so many corners on every little item and I have to ask myself why they go to such lenghts for a 10 to 20% savings and lock out their LFS. I enjoy going to my favorite fish stores and try my best to support them whenever possible. The people I deal with have always tried to save me money whenever possible, sometimes they are a little more expensive than online vendors or stores that sell like products, but I would rather give my money to the guy that actually makes a living from and supports my hobby instead of saving 20%.
My comment was just a little heads up to those that seem to go out of there way, for a a few bucks saved. A good example would be going to Petsmart or Wallmart to purchase a pump that is sold for 20% less than at your LFS. Sure you could do it, but is it a good idea? I guess that's something everyone needs to ask themselves and is a personal choice.
Bean...
Relax.... I have read many of your posts here and I do have alot of respect for your opinions and your base of knowledge in this hobby.
I am not disagreeing with you-- but both will work on a bucket-- unless the bucket is curved and made out of a rigid and brittle material.
I qualified my original statement about the uniseals in general that I have never cut my own hole for a uniseal (I've used them on precut --precision cut--very round holes and they sealed just fine)--- so I expect the reader of my post to take my lack of experience with uniseals into account...
if you say the hole doesn't need to be very round then I completely believe you and cheerfully retract my statement.... (about the roundness of the holes being critical for them to seal properly)
That being said-- bulkheads will seal and not leak when used on a plastic bucket--- either bulkheads or uniseals can be used.
If anyone is worried about using a bulkhead on a curved bucket-- you can use a square bucket....
-- a square bucket is usually a better utilizer of space anyway...
I think we are getting a little hung up on this part of the bucket DSB discussion....
@LRS078
I think that should be a good enough size...
I ran a bucket DSB for 4 months but I don't think it was big enough (5 gallon bucket with 50 pounds of sand) on a 135 gallon lightly stocked tank.... my trates still were rising just slower-- since then I've added a 29 gallon fuge and macro (chaeto and some grape caulerpa) lighted 18 hours per day and the trates are dropping real fast--- I'm certain the bucket DSBs work, just need to use a big enough volume on your system.... my bucket DSB is still connected to my system but I plan on making it bigger (using a 15 gallon glass tank with about 125-150 pounds of sand)
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7883376#post7883376 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Spuds725
I think we are getting a little hung up on this part of the bucket DSB discussion....
I agree, and I think we all have enough information at this point to make our own (well informed) decision on whether to go with bulkheads or uniseals.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I am not sure anybody has any real numbers on just how much they help. Most people seem to implement them in conjunction with other measures while trying to battle a problem. It may be that the RDSB in a bucket is just one tool that helps in the battle and in a given situation is simply not enough to fix the problem, as is the case with a fuge or any other tool.
Mine is not online yet. I am just finishing a large skimmer and don't want to put another pump (albiet small) online for a few months. I have a significant other that tracks the electric bill my the milliwatt hour!
Mine is not online yet. I am just finishing a large skimmer and don't want to put another pump (albiet small) online for a few months. I have a significant other that tracks the electric bill my the milliwatt hour!
Welp I just setup my 6 gallon salt bucket with some sand and its outside running for a bit to test for leaks and rinse the sand a bit more. Gonna run it on my nano to cycle it(just in case something goes wrong) and then see what it does on my 58g. If all goes well Ill have to build something a bit nicer then a bucket to house it since my stand is full
Petstorejunkie
New member
Anyone on this board know a good source for aragonite sand in the southeast/atlanta ga area? Still can't find any. Have talked to a couple LFS's re: a bulk order but no hard figures yet. May have to use mostly silica sand w' a aragonite bit on top for buffering. Just how much do you lose going silica vs aragonite? First hand experiences please....
Thx
Thx
fantastic4
New member
please post your results,
starting nitrate
time since dsb implemented
current nitrate
size of tank
size of dsb
starting nitrate
time since dsb implemented
current nitrate
size of tank
size of dsb
antonsemrad
New member
Sorry I have not read all of this thread, but has anyone buried some organic matter (preferably low in p04) down deep in the sand? If I understand it right it is the reduction of dissolved organic matter, without oxygen that causes the reduction of nitrates. So in tanks with low DOM (heavy skimming) this process would take longer. It also occurred to me that the RDSB would aslo make a great cheto fuge by adding a cheap flood light. The cheto would take up P04 and provide oxygen. However once the nitrates got down to "0" it would not grow so well. Then nitrates would have to be added (magine that!) to provide the P04 uptake. But then this wouldn't be so novel. Would it? I do beleve that Randy Holmes-Farley utilizes this strategy. But anyway how about burying some shrimp down deep?
christian1966
Member
It's my understanding that you only want sand in the RSDB. You are not trying to make it a place to grow macro or other live inhabitants. You want good water flow so no detritus settles in the sand. Correct?
