DSB in a bucket for nitrate control
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trmiv
Active member
A.G. thanks, looks good!. It appears the output is slightly lower than the input, was that by design?
I ordered some 1/2" uniseals, I think those will be big enough. Only planning on putting like 250-300 gph through this thing, so I guess 1/2 tubing will be enough. I'm guessing a Quiet One 1200 (296 gph) would be enough.
I'm going to do this under my tank, and then 3/4" sand bed in my tank for looks.
I ordered some 1/2" uniseals, I think those will be big enough. Only planning on putting like 250-300 gph through this thing, so I guess 1/2 tubing will be enough. I'm guessing a Quiet One 1200 (296 gph) would be enough.
I'm going to do this under my tank, and then 3/4" sand bed in my tank for looks.
Anthony Calfo
New member
heehee... I was the same way my friends. For all the hooting and hollering about DSBs and with drama... and for all the time, effort and money we spend trying to control nitrates - it really is this simply and cheap for many folks. Amazing 
My first in-tank display DSB did the same for me: early 90's... a 500-ish gall reef Berlin style that I could not get the nitrates down in to save my life [no feeding of the fishes... two massive skimmers... large weekly water changes... did not control it]. Then I put 4" of fine (<1mm grains) sand in the tank... and in well under one month, the nitrates fell to near zero and stayed there! Sweet
Other than aesthetics, NNR (Natural Nitrate Reduction) is the principal reason I use and recommend various DSB applications.
In fact... they are two of the only reasons I recommend DSBs (many other claims about DSB potential are exaggerated or bunk IMO like zooplankton production - see the DSB thread in this forum for my take on the subject. Keyword search in/for the last six months).
My first in-tank display DSB did the same for me: early 90's... a 500-ish gall reef Berlin style that I could not get the nitrates down in to save my life [no feeding of the fishes... two massive skimmers... large weekly water changes... did not control it]. Then I put 4" of fine (<1mm grains) sand in the tank... and in well under one month, the nitrates fell to near zero and stayed there! Sweet
Other than aesthetics, NNR (Natural Nitrate Reduction) is the principal reason I use and recommend various DSB applications.
In fact... they are two of the only reasons I recommend DSBs (many other claims about DSB potential are exaggerated or bunk IMO like zooplankton production - see the DSB thread in this forum for my take on the subject. Keyword search in/for the last six months).
A.G
New member
trmiv said:
Yes, Otherwise I would overflow the bucket.
I would go with 3/4" or more fittings.Trust me 250 gph is plenty for 5g bucket. I have 250 gph pump with a ball valve to reduce the flow. I had sand covring the bottom of my sump when the pump was installed with no ball valves( I believe I overfilled my bucket with sand :lol: .
captbunzo, I needed lots of sand to fill the bucket and I was broke
So I went to an unpopulated beach and start collecting the dry sand. So far so good.
A.G
captbunzo
Premium Member
Hehe - broke... That's why I was asking! I want to keep the cost of this down when I get around to implementing it sometime in the next couple of months.
First I need to finish a power center project I am working on for the tank. And then upgrade/improve my sump/refugium. And THEN I will have the room to put a pump in my sump to feed a DSBB (Deep Sand Bed Bucket).
Now I am really wishing I went with the Mag 9.5 instead of the Mag 7. Maybe I will worry less about the total amount of flow I am pushing through my sump, save the money on that extra pump, and look for a submersible pump for my main system to use to build a closed loop.
First I need to finish a power center project I am working on for the tank. And then upgrade/improve my sump/refugium. And THEN I will have the room to put a pump in my sump to feed a DSBB (Deep Sand Bed Bucket).
Now I am really wishing I went with the Mag 9.5 instead of the Mag 7. Maybe I will worry less about the total amount of flow I am pushing through my sump, save the money on that extra pump, and look for a submersible pump for my main system to use to build a closed loop.
CaptiveMarine
Premium Member
Anthony,
I'm in the process of building a new breeding setup (see thread here ) since I lost my reef in the hurricane, and the DSB in a bucket really looks promising at keeping nitrates down in a fish only system with heavy feeding three and four times a day.
There two systems, each with six 20 gallon tanks and a 50 gallon sump. The filtration will consist of a filter sock for all water entering the sump, a 5' DIY counter current skimmer (aka Snailman Skimmer ), a Pentair Aquatics Fluidized Bed filter (model FB900 rated for 900 gallons), and a 40 watt UV. Looking at my drawings I think I have room for either a 20 or 25 gallon Rubbermaid container to be plumed into the system, fed by the ruturn from the fluidized bed filter (about 250 gph). Would this be big enough to make a noticable difference in my nitrate levels, and is feeding it from the fluidized bed filter a good idea?
Thanks for all your help.
Oh, I picked up your invert book last night. Outstanding work.
I'm in the process of building a new breeding setup (see thread here ) since I lost my reef in the hurricane, and the DSB in a bucket really looks promising at keeping nitrates down in a fish only system with heavy feeding three and four times a day.
There two systems, each with six 20 gallon tanks and a 50 gallon sump. The filtration will consist of a filter sock for all water entering the sump, a 5' DIY counter current skimmer (aka Snailman Skimmer ), a Pentair Aquatics Fluidized Bed filter (model FB900 rated for 900 gallons), and a 40 watt UV. Looking at my drawings I think I have room for either a 20 or 25 gallon Rubbermaid container to be plumed into the system, fed by the ruturn from the fluidized bed filter (about 250 gph). Would this be big enough to make a noticable difference in my nitrate levels, and is feeding it from the fluidized bed filter a good idea?
Thanks for all your help.
Oh, I picked up your invert book last night. Outstanding work.
Anthony Calfo
New member
cheers, Jim
its tough to say for sure without knowing what the bioload will ultimately be. But I'd say the 25 gall rubbermaid would be a minimum for the expected heavy load. Larger would be nice (ala the mention earlier in this thread about the 55gall for a LFS).
I must also tell you that I really(!) feel the fluidized bed is an awful idea. It is a big liability (oxygen competition) in times of duress to the system. Really... trickly style filtration far outperforms fluidized beds in the long run for safe-keeping and tolerance of stress. FWIW
Thanks for your very kind words too about my NMARI book too
Anthony
its tough to say for sure without knowing what the bioload will ultimately be. But I'd say the 25 gall rubbermaid would be a minimum for the expected heavy load. Larger would be nice (ala the mention earlier in this thread about the 55gall for a LFS).
I must also tell you that I really(!) feel the fluidized bed is an awful idea. It is a big liability (oxygen competition) in times of duress to the system. Really... trickly style filtration far outperforms fluidized beds in the long run for safe-keeping and tolerance of stress. FWIW
Thanks for your very kind words too about my NMARI book too
Anthony
Daemonfly
New member
Having a few nano & pico tanks, whats the smallest you think you could go for these?
Just for the hell of it, 2 months ago I converted a Hagen CO2 canister over to a "DSB bucket" with about 6" of sand. Still testing, but not noticing any problems and the nitrates have been low.
Just for the hell of it, 2 months ago I converted a Hagen CO2 canister over to a "DSB bucket" with about 6" of sand. Still testing, but not noticing any problems and the nitrates have been low.
RayinAZ
Member
ChinChek mentioned this a few posts above, but no one commented. Could I use my old Fluval 403 to create a "mini" bucket DSB? (I know it would be smaller volume-wise than a 5 gallon) I have a 100gallon glass tank with no sump or plumbing. I don't have room in back to hang an overflow box, so I'm looking for options.
If I filled the canister with sand so it was 3-4 inches below the top and maybe added some foam up at the top (maybe one of the foam insets that came with?), as Anthony mentioned in a different context, to diffuse the water, would it work?
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Ray
PS CC, the nano's working great as Quarantine tank.
If I filled the canister with sand so it was 3-4 inches below the top and maybe added some foam up at the top (maybe one of the foam insets that came with?), as Anthony mentioned in a different context, to diffuse the water, would it work?
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Ray
PS CC, the nano's working great as Quarantine tank.
RichConley
New member
How much flow do you think we actually need? I'm looking at a 5g bucket, filled with sand, you've probably got 1/2 gallon of water in there... with 200 gph, thats 400x turnover.
Even running a 3.5gph Aqualifter, thats 7x turnover. If I can get by with one of those, its gonna cost me like 20 bucks total, and use almost no power.
Even running a 3.5gph Aqualifter, thats 7x turnover. If I can get by with one of those, its gonna cost me like 20 bucks total, and use almost no power.
RichConley
New member
bump. Just wanted to make sure you saw this Anthony. Any idea on what the flow actually needs to be?
captbunzo
Premium Member
Ok. Let's get back to the basics.
Worry less about the exact GPH. Just eyeball it. The point is to make sure that water is flowing across at a rate sufficient enough to avoid crud from settling out. Does that make sense?
My plan, when I get around to implementing this on a system, is to Tee off of my sump return pump and control water flow via a gate valve (you could probably use a ball valve as well). And then I will allow the output of that to just flow via gravity back into the sump. With the volume of water we are talking about, this should be a find way to go, IMHO.
Worry less about the exact GPH. Just eyeball it. The point is to make sure that water is flowing across at a rate sufficient enough to avoid crud from settling out. Does that make sense?
My plan, when I get around to implementing this on a system, is to Tee off of my sump return pump and control water flow via a gate valve (you could probably use a ball valve as well). And then I will allow the output of that to just flow via gravity back into the sump. With the volume of water we are talking about, this should be a find way to go, IMHO.
Anthony Calfo
New member
exactly as Paul states! The only thing that matters is that enough flow is provided to keep solids in suspension. Period. The (tank volume of) water is processed so many times per day that the total flow is a moot issue. NNR will occur.
The (tank volume of) water is processed so many times per day that the total flow is a moot issue. NNR will occur.
Anthony Calfo
New member
oolitic sand like southdown is fine... sugar fine is... er, fine! The finer sands are better IMO for NNR.
Y'all are really missing the point here!
High flow is never a problem when properly diffused! (rolling laminar wall... sponge block on feed line... whatever).
Only a misplaced nozzle (gravity feed or pump line) blasting a focussed stream of water into a pile of sand will cause a snowstorm. Thats not the sand's fault
Y'all are really missing the point here!
High flow is never a problem when properly diffused! (rolling laminar wall... sponge block on feed line... whatever).
Only a misplaced nozzle (gravity feed or pump line) blasting a focussed stream of water into a pile of sand will cause a snowstorm. Thats not the sand's fault
trmiv
Active member
Ahhh. I think I am stuck with something other than Southdown though. Unfortunately here on the West Coast we don't get that fine, cheap Southdown sand.
I know this has been discussed before, but silica play sand is OK for this? I've read so many threads discussing the pro's and con's of using silica sand, I'm not even sure what the right answer is anymore.
I know this has been discussed before, but silica play sand is OK for this? I've read so many threads discussing the pro's and con's of using silica sand, I'm not even sure what the right answer is anymore.
Anthony Calfo
New member
silica is OK for the DSB bucket and use in general.
The issue of leaching silica is generally overstated if an issue at all.
The real disadvantage of silica is its shape. Unlike oolitic sand (round/fluid moving), silica is angular and sharp - it locks in place and packs tight. As long as you prevent solids from accumulating/penetrating... there will be no problem with silica sand here.
The issue of leaching silica is generally overstated if an issue at all.
The real disadvantage of silica is its shape. Unlike oolitic sand (round/fluid moving), silica is angular and sharp - it locks in place and packs tight. As long as you prevent solids from accumulating/penetrating... there will be no problem with silica sand here.
captbunzo
Premium Member
Ok. Now I have a question, Captain Calfo.
Let's say you setup a tank (say a 55G - 75G) with a DSB Bucket, about an inch of fine sand on the bottom, and dead rock (limestones) as decoration. You'd probably want to setup a simple sump as a place to put in a protein skimmer, run some carbon, etc. Maybe a refugium for some growth of critters.
Once the nitrogen cycle has been given time to establish in such a tank, would such a tank provide sufficient biological filtration to support a small bioload?
I guess the core question here is whether a DSB Bucket can be used as the primary means of biological filtration for a tank? Will the sand contain enough de-ammoniaizing and de-nitriting bacteria to take care of business, as well as that which would grow in the tank water column and shallow sand bed?
Just a curiosity I have been pondering recently. Might always be a fun experiement.
Let's say you setup a tank (say a 55G - 75G) with a DSB Bucket, about an inch of fine sand on the bottom, and dead rock (limestones) as decoration. You'd probably want to setup a simple sump as a place to put in a protein skimmer, run some carbon, etc. Maybe a refugium for some growth of critters.
Once the nitrogen cycle has been given time to establish in such a tank, would such a tank provide sufficient biological filtration to support a small bioload?
I guess the core question here is whether a DSB Bucket can be used as the primary means of biological filtration for a tank? Will the sand contain enough de-ammoniaizing and de-nitriting bacteria to take care of business, as well as that which would grow in the tank water column and shallow sand bed?
Just a curiosity I have been pondering recently. Might always be a fun experiement.
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