DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[Bill Shultz]

Part of my recent interest in aggressive nitrate control is that I have a beautiful pinktail trigger that has decided for the past month and a half that he is no longer interested in eating. His behavior has switched from swimming around the tank and only wedging himself into rocks periodically to the present behavior which includes laying in the corners of the tank and becoming so sickly that I can catch him with little effort.

My tank has been pretty stable and the only variable that has been problematic is the nitrates. Ammonia, Nitrite are undetectable. I don't check, but I've got a good phosphate remover that I use. Temp and salinity are rock solid at 79 and 1.025 respectively. I have a porcupine puffer also in my 55 gallong tank who continues to thrive during my trigger's illness.

Has anyone heard of this type of fish behavior from high nitrates?

 

[RayinAZ]

Thanks for the input on my question. I've been away from RC for a while (job and family--imagine that!)

I'm intrigued by the pool filter idea. My neighbor's in the business . . .

 

[RayinAZ]

Thanks for the input on my question. I've been away from RC for a while (job and family--imagine that!)

I'm intrigued by the pool filter idea. My neighbor's in the business . . .

 

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, Bill

Thank you for your kind words my friend

Your installation overall looks fine. Nice idea to have some coarse media atop to prevent fine sand from blowing around too easily. The mechanical prefiltration of the feed water spares the worry or concern over that such media trapping solids excessively. The flow from the Fluval is likely nicely moderate too.

True... I would like to see more than 5" of fine sand for the DSB here... but it will be helpful as it is regardless. It may well be enough after all.

As for the fishes not eating from high nitrates... it is documented over and over again, yes One of the more extreme expressions of it is Thyroid Hyperplasia (do some keyword searches for this). It can be caused by iodine deficiencies in the diet and/or high nitrtates (which inhibit the uptake of otherwise available iodine). A goiter is formed in the throat region which is generally not obvious until it is too late.

still... it is reversible slowly over time (months). Force feeding willl be necessary after 3-4 weeks without feeding (PM me if needed). Reduce nitrates to near zero and provide an iodine rich diet (fresh/thawed shellfish ala shrimp, crabs, etc) and Lugols iodine supplemented to the water in small daily doses faithfully (follow the reef supplement mfg dose recommendations here to start with safely).

best of luck,

Anthony

 

[Bill Shultz]

Anthony,

Thanks for the rapid response. I did try to forcefeed my pinktail with some sucess already.

My earlier post had a few typos in it . . . I have 8.5" of total media in my bucket:
5" of sand
2" of the 1-2mm size Aragonite
and then about 1.5" of the larger rocks on the very top.

Even though I have only 5" of sand in the bottom, do you think the 2" of Aragonite on top of this will help contribute to the total depth of the bed and (hopefully) provide for the anaerobic environment I'm hoping to achieve? Time will tell the story, but don't some people create DSB's by using Aragonite alone?

And finally, as I know that other people will surely read this forum looking for answers (as I have), I would like to hear and any techniques you have for force feeding ailing fish.

Thanks again for your time.

--Bill

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Pufferqueen (LMAS' Ms Kelly Jedlicki) has shown me techniques for using soft airline tubing and a syringe (no needle... the tubing hooks up to the nozzle) for injecting a high protein mash (slurry with cyclop-eeze, Selcon, etc... whatever is needed for the species/specimen). It takes some basic thought and consideration for the anatomy of the creature. Yet with slow insertion of the soft feeding tube.. you can proceed slowly until you reach the gut and feel a slight resistence. (a transverse piece of rigid airline tubing can be used as a bite stick to prevent small toothy fishes from closing down on the soft tubing).

It's quite easy after you have been shown in person.l It at all possible, do see if a local very works with aquatics. The office visit fee will be well worth the lesson.

Professionals (and folks with access to hospital supplies ) often use a tiny catheter made for infants to force feed small fishes - same principal of soft tubing for gavage feeding.

If there are further questions on forced/gavage feeding, let's please make a new thread for the benefit of others and folks that search the archives in the future.

 

[Bill Shultz]

Another quick issue with the DSB bucket that I wanted to address for anyone who is thinking of creating a DSB using an ordinary 5 gal bucket:

For my bulkheads I just used the ordinary kind that you could buy for a few bucks at the local ACE hardware. My return bulkhead (which is mounted on the side of bucket) is of the standard variety -- and is not designed for a curved surface. I found that the walls of the bucket are flexable and thin enough that if you just tighten the bulkhead adequately, then it will seal even this slightly curved surface just fine.

Nothing fancy needed.

 

[Earls]

I just read all this and I am very interested. Two questions, what kind of sand would I use and how much water flow. I am having trouble with nitrates and nothing else seems to be working. Did anyone ever take Anthony up on doing a test? Thanks

 

[Bill Shultz]

Which regard to the style of buckets to use:

I say just use the buckets that the salt is sold in.

Anyone reading this thread with an interest in battleing high nitrates is probably no stranger to large, frequent water changes -- and thus having to buy lots of salt.

 

[rolinjs]

DSB in bucket w/aragonite & sulphur?

DSB in bucket w/aragonite & sulphur?

What if you put sulphur beads at the bottom of the bucket and filled the rest with aragonite. My thinking is that the bottom of the bucket is very anoxic, which is a good environment for the sulphur eating bacteria. The low pH would be neutralized with the aragonite.
Would this work?

 

[Awright]

I have been toying with the idea to install a DSB bucket. So I did.
Here are a few pics of the set-up. My nitrates were over 50ppm using Salifert test kit.

I used 3/4" uniseals on the lid & side of a 6.5 gallons Kent sea salt bucket.

Used a MJ1000 as the feed pump.

Installed.

 

[SRVDVM]

I like the idea of using aragonite sand in the bucket for buffering. 1) My question is do you need to use aragonite if you have a Ca reactor?
2) Since the pH of the water running through the bucket is basic (ph 8.3 +/-), I do not think any more Ca would leach out. Is this correct
3) what types of pumps are people using to run the water through? Would a simple power head work or is there a better suggestion?

Thanks

 

[Anthony Calfo]

1) as per earlier in the thread - another advantage of aragonite is its shape - oolitic (round/spheres) versus the angular shpaes of silica/sharp sand. The latter being a disadvantage as it packs tighter. Can be overcome... and no, aragonite is not needed. But I'd say its better on merit of shape if none other.

2)Nope... not correct. Aragonite dissolves at a much higher pH than Calcite. As such... a day time pH of 8.4 means a likely night time drop that will still dissolve aragonite slowly.

3)Hmmm... it's sounding like you really did not read the thread, my friend and are asking repeated question. It's a good thread if I may say so... truly worth the time to read. Please respect our time as well In answer to your question, though... yes - a simple powerhead is fine. Discussions about flow to guide you on precise pump size can be found... er, well. You know

 

[rolinjs]

What would be better at stabalizing pH? DSB bucket or macro algea in the sump. I am having a pH problem on my reef tank (it is dropping to 7.7 at night. I was thinking of using macro to offset this drop in pH. After reading about the DSB bucket it sounds like it could keep pH up.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

wow... a pH of 7.7 is scary if that is an accurate reading.

You should first figure out what the fundamental cause is. Thats too severe, frankly.

I'll guess for starters that you are using raw RO or DI water without aertaing or buffering it before use as evap top off or salting? (see threads on this in my forum archives)

Or... your source water otherwise (tap water, eg) is naturally soft/lacking in mineral hardess.

Yes... please do some keyword searches for this topic in other threads/forums my friend (to keep this thread tidy).

In answer to your question... both reverse daylight photoperiods over macroalgae and aragonite DSB buckets will offer some pH stabilization... but not enough to bring you from 7.7 back to a healthy 8.4-8.6. You've got bigger issues here.

 

[capt. insano]

correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't plant respiration (including macro algae) create carbon dioxide, which is acidic? Macros don't buffer your water at all.....rather having your refugium on a reverse lighting cycle from your display tank helps to stabilize your pH

 

[rolinjs]

I believe that plants, including most thngs that use photosynthesis as energy, use CO2. This is why when lights are on during the day, the pH tends to go up. At night when lights are off, there is abundent CO2, which tends to lower pH.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

respiration at night of photsynthetic organisms (including zooxanthellae, diatoms, macroalgae, corallines, etc)

 

[SRVDVM]

What, if any, are the potential problems of running a calcium reactor and using aragonite in a 5 ga DSB bucket?

If there are potential problems, how can they be prevented
Thanks

 

[Anthony Calfo]

I really cannot see any common or uncommon conflict between the DSB bucket with aragonite and a prooperly running/tuned calcium reacter.