DSB in a bucket for nitrate control
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Dag
Premium Member
Anthony,
Do you care to comment on the theory of why the remote DSB works. Some have argued that it can't work because in order for the DSB to work, water has to move through it, and for water to move through it, critters have to live in the DSB, and for the critters to live they have to fed, and not enough food gets to the DSB unless you specifically feed it, and feeding a DSB is adding unnecessary pollution.
Experience often trumps theory, but wondering if you had a countertheory, or have an opinion as to what is the weak link in the foregoing chain of reasoning.
Do you care to comment on the theory of why the remote DSB works. Some have argued that it can't work because in order for the DSB to work, water has to move through it, and for water to move through it, critters have to live in the DSB, and for the critters to live they have to fed, and not enough food gets to the DSB unless you specifically feed it, and feeding a DSB is adding unnecessary pollution.
Experience often trumps theory, but wondering if you had a countertheory, or have an opinion as to what is the weak link in the foregoing chain of reasoning.
Anthony Calfo
New member
I'm not a sedimentologist... nor the type of aquarist that enjoys speaking out of my realm of education or experience.
But the theory that macro-organisms are required to facilitate adequate NNR to make a remote DSB work is ludicrous.
To be clear here.... we are talking about about a remote DSB processing nitrates already in the water (solution)... not solid matter.
For the solid matter instead, I would agree with the DSB critics that you DO NOT want to allow much or any (excess) solid matter infiltrate the media. Rather... it is best always (as per my endless preaching) to export them ASAP before they become nitrified via aggressive skimming and by strong water flow (improving feeding opportunities of filter feeders on solids by the extended time in suspension for particulates).
I'd really like to see the critics just try the ding dang thing before they go off mentally masturbating on theories of why it could not work (even though it clearly does).
And this is such a cheap and low risk application. Why not just try it before complaining? Some people
Experience trumps theory here, as you say my friend.
But the theory that macro-organisms are required to facilitate adequate NNR to make a remote DSB work is ludicrous.
To be clear here.... we are talking about about a remote DSB processing nitrates already in the water (solution)... not solid matter.
For the solid matter instead, I would agree with the DSB critics that you DO NOT want to allow much or any (excess) solid matter infiltrate the media. Rather... it is best always (as per my endless preaching) to export them ASAP before they become nitrified via aggressive skimming and by strong water flow (improving feeding opportunities of filter feeders on solids by the extended time in suspension for particulates).
I'd really like to see the critics just try the ding dang thing before they go off mentally masturbating on theories of why it could not work (even though it clearly does).
And this is such a cheap and low risk application. Why not just try it before complaining? Some people
Experience trumps theory here, as you say my friend.
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I think what I'd do if (and when) I had the space is use my skimmer pump as the return pump and then feed the overflows directly into the skimmer. Then I'd use gravity to pass the water (skimmer output) over the RDSB and then into the sump.
Only problem is setting the skimmer up a bit higher than the sump so gravity can do it's part. What say you, Anthony?
Only problem is setting the skimmer up a bit higher than the sump so gravity can do it's part. What say you, Anthony?
trmiv
Active member
I'm getting ready to set one of these up on my new 90g. What I can't decide is, what to do with the sand in the tank? I was going to do a DSB in the tank, but that seems superfluous with this remote DSB. I can't stand the look of barebottom, so I will have sand. Should I stick with like 1" or under of fine sand, or go with coarser sand that I can vacuum regularly. The sand will obviously just be for looks since the DSB bucket will be handling the denitrification chores. I just don't want the sand in the tank to become a problem.
Anthony or anyone else for that mater.... Help a guy out here and fill me in on 'how' exactly does passing a strong flow of water over top of sand remove the nitrates? And why is any particular depth of the sand important? Sorry if this seems like a beginner type question - and I'd imagine there is must be some science behind it... but I got to know
TIA
captbunzo
Premium Member
I'll give you my opinion, for what it is or is not worth.
First, your concern regarding sand (IMHO) is less about how much, and more about grain size and how you are going to keep detritus from settling. Two easy answers:
A. Small Grain
B. Keep up the flow.
And so this seems to be relatively independent of the amount of sand you put in the tank. So, personally, I would focus on the magic 30-40x diffused flow.
And then, based on budget, I would put 3-4 inches of sugar sized sand. You can go with less. For ME, that is an aesthetic thing, and about providing a place for critters to live in the display tank sand, sand for a goby, or whatever else you decide to go with.
Just my two cents!
Anthony Calfo
New member
display DSBs are generally hard for most folks to finesse. The methodology is not flawed... just the application by most folks. That is to say... most aquarists build their rock structures against one or more sides of the aquarium (severaly handicapping water flow and leading to excess accumulation of solids/sinking in the DSB in time. Most aquarists also stock too many fishes... too early and/or over feed them... and most aquariums lack enough flow or enough of the right kind of flow. and have too many dead spots instead. All of theses things and more lead to the avoidable pollution of a substrate (regardaless of depth or grain size). Yet the reality of it is that most folks are NOT cut out for a display DSB. So as much as I like using them, I rarely recommend them or any but the most well-read/experienced/competant aquarists.
So... we have the RDSB option.
As for how it works... I'm really not sure what more there is to say. It is staggeringly simple as Paul has pointed out.
Focus on grain size (fine and small to prevent easy penetration of solids into tyhe bed) and maintain enough water flow to do the same. Nitrates already in solution are utilized by denitrifying faculties in a way similar, you might say, to the way our corals draw various dissolved elememts from the water (calcium, ammonia, etc from solution).
I can't say it any better/clearer. It really is that simple and cheap to do. Not rocket science here.
To alleve your dounts/fears... you might even take a temporary RDSM bucket and set it up in front of your aquarium on the floor being fed and returning on a short loop to/from your sump. Let it sit there for a month and watch your nitrates go down. If they do... then considcer a permenant installation (where/how). If it doesn't... then contemplate why (come back and ask detailed questions based on real experience and a real application) or... you can just take it off and think I'm full of it
Either way it will only cost you less than $20 in materials likely. A small investment for a potentially significant return (nitrate reduction... less water changes for not having high(er) nitrates... better aquarium health, perhaps less nuisance algae and time saved for not manually treating it, etc.). Lord knows you've/we've wasted far more money on other things... like killing fishes or corals because you don't have a QT tank
So... we have the RDSB option.
As for how it works... I'm really not sure what more there is to say. It is staggeringly simple as Paul has pointed out.
Focus on grain size (fine and small to prevent easy penetration of solids into tyhe bed) and maintain enough water flow to do the same. Nitrates already in solution are utilized by denitrifying faculties in a way similar, you might say, to the way our corals draw various dissolved elememts from the water (calcium, ammonia, etc from solution).
I can't say it any better/clearer. It really is that simple and cheap to do. Not rocket science here.
To alleve your dounts/fears... you might even take a temporary RDSM bucket and set it up in front of your aquarium on the floor being fed and returning on a short loop to/from your sump. Let it sit there for a month and watch your nitrates go down. If they do... then considcer a permenant installation (where/how). If it doesn't... then contemplate why (come back and ask detailed questions based on real experience and a real application) or... you can just take it off and think I'm full of it
Either way it will only cost you less than $20 in materials likely. A small investment for a potentially significant return (nitrate reduction... less water changes for not having high(er) nitrates... better aquarium health, perhaps less nuisance algae and time saved for not manually treating it, etc.). Lord knows you've/we've wasted far more money on other things... like killing fishes or corals because you don't have a QT tank
trmiv
Active member
Oh I have no problem with the RDSB, that is going on my tank for sure. I'm sold on the concept.
What I'm trying to decide is since I'll having the RDSB taking care of my denitrification issues, I won't have to depend on a tank DSB for that. So where do I go with sand in the display? A short coarse sand bed that can be vacummed regularly? Short fine sand bed and disturb it regularly? Barebottom?
What I'm trying to decide is since I'll having the RDSB taking care of my denitrification issues, I won't have to depend on a tank DSB for that. So where do I go with sand in the display? A short coarse sand bed that can be vacummed regularly? Short fine sand bed and disturb it regularly? Barebottom?
Anthony Calfo
New member
I would suggest minimal sand in the display for the low-maintenance option and safe bet, indeed. Larger grains for high water flow tanks... finer sands if you can (using a CLM or like diffused water flow versus streamers or the like). Whichever you choose... keep it well under 1" depth IMO 
nickyblase
New member
After reading all this, I've decided I'm going to do one, but need some design advice, as my space is a little limited.
I would like to put this in my stand under my 38G, but the stand of course isn't huge. What I was thinking I would do is put in a 5 gallon salt bucket as the first to receive the h20 from the display with the skimmer in it to grab as much solid as possible, then have the side of the 5g drilled and a tube gravity feeding h20 into a 2g bucket filled within a few inches of the top with sand, and then (if I've got enough room), have that gravity feed into a small refugium and up into the tank again.
Will this work? As I look at one of my 2 gallon buckets that I use for water changes on my nano, It's about 10" tall by 9" in diameter.
If this isn't enough to support a fairly heavily stocked reef tank, I could probably fit 2 5 gallon salt buckets inside the stand, but would then have to find a way to combine the sump bucket as a sump/skimmer holder, and somehow put a small fuge in it.
Does anyone have any ideas?
I would like to put this in my stand under my 38G, but the stand of course isn't huge. What I was thinking I would do is put in a 5 gallon salt bucket as the first to receive the h20 from the display with the skimmer in it to grab as much solid as possible, then have the side of the 5g drilled and a tube gravity feeding h20 into a 2g bucket filled within a few inches of the top with sand, and then (if I've got enough room), have that gravity feed into a small refugium and up into the tank again.
Will this work? As I look at one of my 2 gallon buckets that I use for water changes on my nano, It's about 10" tall by 9" in diameter.
If this isn't enough to support a fairly heavily stocked reef tank, I could probably fit 2 5 gallon salt buckets inside the stand, but would then have to find a way to combine the sump bucket as a sump/skimmer holder, and somehow put a small fuge in it.
Does anyone have any ideas?
A picture of your buckets inside the stand (without plumbing) might help see this (your plan). It sounds like it would work but you obviously need enough room to service your skimmer-- might be a problem if that bucket is elevated.
Also, any considering using buckets for sumps, RDSBs, etc-- the square plastic kitty litter container buckets they sell will more then likely help you utilize space better then traditional round buckets..
This is a shorter one, but they do have taller ones
I haven't used this method yet but I might as I feel like I am starving my fish all the time so could increase my feeding level a bit....
Regarding how it works I think it might just be an issue of nitrate concentrations in the water at the top and bottom of the sandbed.... let me walk you through my reasoning-- (I majored in Chemistry in college and it kind of goes along with thermodynamic principles--finally a use for that awful Physical Chemistry class I had to take).....Realize this is mainly me just postulating and making assumptions on how it might work-- I have no direct experience with this method or research on how it actually works...
I'm assuming you will agree that the sand at the bottom of the bed is wet so the water has penetrated to the bottom.... now in relationship to the sand grains, the water and nitrate molecules are easily much smaller then the smallest of the sand grains so it should not be an issue for them to be able to move down and around the grains-- now we get to the issue of how do the nitrates penetrate if the water isn't moving down through the sand bed....
IMO its simply being diluted from a region of higher nitrate concentration to lower.... initially when the sand bed is added, the water in the sand bed will contain nitrates.... as DE-nitrifying bacteria form and start consuming the nitrates the concentration of nitrate in the water at the bottom will decrease -- this difference in concentration is what would be driving the nitrates through the sand bed--
The second law of thermodynamics states is kind of set of principles but is pretty well reflected by
"The most concise statement of the second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of any isolated thermodynamic system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value."
This is from this website-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics --
You should try to think of Entropy as disorder-- this is what drives dilution in liquids and gasses-- think of it as an odor or aroma that spreads around a room lacking circulation-- thermodynamic processes a driven by increasing disorder since this is the lowest energy state--- dilution occurs because of this...
the same applies to liquids... put anything that dissolves in water and even without circulation, the concentration of that substance will eventually equalize throughout the volume of liquid, barring any external force..
Now since the nitrate is being consumed in the sand bed, the naturual tendency would be for more nitrates to move into the sand bed and further be consumed as this lowers the energy state of the nitrates in the water.... so the nitrates are continually pulled into the sandbed as they are consumed...
I hope this makes sense to those that read it...
once again... this is mainly just my thoughts on the subject and not based on any actual experiments or research....
and as Anthony pointed out... it works, how doesn't really matter...
Also, any considering using buckets for sumps, RDSBs, etc-- the square plastic kitty litter container buckets they sell will more then likely help you utilize space better then traditional round buckets..
This is a shorter one, but they do have taller ones
I haven't used this method yet but I might as I feel like I am starving my fish all the time so could increase my feeding level a bit....
Regarding how it works I think it might just be an issue of nitrate concentrations in the water at the top and bottom of the sandbed.... let me walk you through my reasoning-- (I majored in Chemistry in college and it kind of goes along with thermodynamic principles--finally a use for that awful Physical Chemistry class I had to take).....Realize this is mainly me just postulating and making assumptions on how it might work-- I have no direct experience with this method or research on how it actually works...
I'm assuming you will agree that the sand at the bottom of the bed is wet so the water has penetrated to the bottom.... now in relationship to the sand grains, the water and nitrate molecules are easily much smaller then the smallest of the sand grains so it should not be an issue for them to be able to move down and around the grains-- now we get to the issue of how do the nitrates penetrate if the water isn't moving down through the sand bed....
IMO its simply being diluted from a region of higher nitrate concentration to lower.... initially when the sand bed is added, the water in the sand bed will contain nitrates.... as DE-nitrifying bacteria form and start consuming the nitrates the concentration of nitrate in the water at the bottom will decrease -- this difference in concentration is what would be driving the nitrates through the sand bed--
The second law of thermodynamics states is kind of set of principles but is pretty well reflected by
"The most concise statement of the second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of any isolated thermodynamic system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value."
This is from this website-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics --
You should try to think of Entropy as disorder-- this is what drives dilution in liquids and gasses-- think of it as an odor or aroma that spreads around a room lacking circulation-- thermodynamic processes a driven by increasing disorder since this is the lowest energy state--- dilution occurs because of this...
the same applies to liquids... put anything that dissolves in water and even without circulation, the concentration of that substance will eventually equalize throughout the volume of liquid, barring any external force..
Now since the nitrate is being consumed in the sand bed, the naturual tendency would be for more nitrates to move into the sand bed and further be consumed as this lowers the energy state of the nitrates in the water.... so the nitrates are continually pulled into the sandbed as they are consumed...
I hope this makes sense to those that read it...
once again... this is mainly just my thoughts on the subject and not based on any actual experiments or research....
and as Anthony pointed out... it works, how doesn't really matter...
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I have a fairly large refugium in the middle of my 30 gallon sump. I have a 120 gallon tank with about 500 gph running through my sump. Can I do a remote deep sand bed in my refuge?
i'd much rather have a DSB in my refuge, and then a shallow sand bed in my display.
This may have already been covered. Thanks for any response.
Josh
i'd much rather have a DSB in my refuge, and then a shallow sand bed in my display.
This may have already been covered. Thanks for any response.
Josh
nickyblase
New member
would one of those kitty litter buckets be big enough for a dsb on a 38? If so, I'll use one of those inside a larger rubbermaid for a sump, and then figure something out for a refugium - maybe a hob if I can't fit one inside the stand.
Spuds.... Thank you for posting that reasoning and your thoughts -- you've really gave me something to think about and further research. Do you have any thoughts on how the depth of the sand bed relates? Does a deeper sand bed 'draw' the nitrates faster or would a somewhat deep bed that has more surface area 'draw' more nitrates ??
IMO-- The depth should not matter as much as its ability to "host" denitrifying bacteria and the overall denitrifying bacteria population of the DSB-- the nitrate concentration should decrease down to zero as you go deeper and deeper into the sand bed... as long as you reach zero (at some point above the bottom of the sand bed)... a zero concentration of nitrate (at some point in the sand bed) should be all that is required to maximize the rate at which the nitrate in the water column difuses into the sand bed-- the sand grain size and type still might play a role in the rate-- really the only way to check this would be to set up some tests of different identical remote DSBs and start varying things between them (types and sizes of grains, water flow, even temperature) and start measuring nitrate concentrations at different depths of each bed to see the differences...
The area of the sand bed should affect the ability and the rate of the nitrate to penetrate just because there should be more area for the nitrate to diffuse into (a larger area should be able to accept more nitrate)-- this should facilitate the rate of diffusion into the bed
I really don't have enough knowledge of what actually occurs in the bed to have an opinion on what might affect this.... the purpose of my post above was to try and provide some logical explanation of what is occuring and what drives the movement of nitrate into the sand bed.... most of us have trouble seing these things on the sub-microscopic level...
once again, all this is not based on any actual experience, reading, or research... this is more of me postulating on what should be occuring based on my understanding of physics and chemistry when applied to this application.... its rare you actually can apply some of these principles to real life situations
IMO yes-- they are about the same size as a 5 gallon bucket, just better shaped for use under a cabinet (it should hold a larger volume for a given height and width)--- I use one of these buckets to transport water from my RO/DI container to my tank and the small one I use should hold about 5 gallons-- 2 1/2 gallons fills it about 1/2 way-- and it seems plenty strong for this use.
Anthony Calfo
New member
The update is very much appreciated my friend! Thank you. Indeed, it sounds like its working as it is intended... with fine sand and adequate water flow, solids do not penetrate/accumulate and the NO3 from nitrification in the system is utilized/reduced as expected
As for the water changes (I know you were joking... but I'll point out here for the newbies), we continue to do them because there are numerous known and unknown accumulating elements to degrading/aging water that must be diluted which have little to nothing to do with the DSB bucket processes.
Thanks again for the fab news AG!
As for the water changes (I know you were joking... but I'll point out here for the newbies), we continue to do them because there are numerous known and unknown accumulating elements to degrading/aging water that must be diluted which have little to nothing to do with the DSB bucket processes.
Thanks again for the fab news AG!
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