Glimmerman911
New member
Go through the wall for the 29g, much more room to play with that 10g. And there is no problem with the overflow going into the bucket then sump, as long as the flow is slow enough.
DSB in a bucket for nitrate control
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The only issue might be detritus accumulating from the raw tank water--- if you could somehow put it after the skimmer (not sure of your skimmer type) or even run the skimmer output to the bucket you would have less chance of stuff accumulating... I know I get a fair amount of food through my overflow (unless you turn off your return for feeding)--- I would go wit as big a sump/fuge as you can--- benefits are enormous IMO....
I ran a loop to my bucket using a Maxijet 1200 from my sump and right back to the sump..... been in a week now..
I ran a loop to my bucket using a Maxijet 1200 from my sump and right back to the sump..... been in a week now..
I hate to beat a dead horse, but I'm trying to understand the complexities of a DSB and how the depth of the sand influences it's performance.
Reading this article by Dr. Shimek
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php
it says:
"Aerobic layers have oxygen concentrations near or at the level found in the free flowing water above the sediments. Anaerobic layers have some oxygen present, but the concentration is reduced from that found in the overlying waters. Anoxic layers have no free dissolved oxygen, and may be also referred to as reducing, as opposed to oxidizing, layers."
"In the anoxic lower regions of a deep sand bed, anaerobic bacteria predominate."
It sounds to me like the deeper the sand bed is, the larger this anoxic layer is which would mean more anaerobic bacteria, no?
I have a 29 gallon with refugium.I have approx. 9 gallons volume for a refugium in my sump which is made from a 20 gal. long. Right now it just has about 4" deep sand bed, and some LR pieces. Could I just fill this further with sand and achieve the same effect? I would have about a 9 1/2 inch bed of sand.
I have a Mag 7 for a return pump, but with all the head loss, I don't think the flow is too great. I have a ball valve installed which I could use to slow the flow if neccessary.
That being said, I will be checking for the neccessary bulkheads tomorrow to plumb a 5 gal bucket.
I have a Mag 7 for a return pump, but with all the head loss, I don't think the flow is too great. I have a ball valve installed which I could use to slow the flow if neccessary.
That being said, I will be checking for the neccessary bulkheads tomorrow to plumb a 5 gal bucket.
mmmmsushi
New member
While I don't have any science to back it up I would think that this position is correct. The water actually has to flow down to the anoxic layers and then mix with the free flowing water. I would think that this mixing only happens in a certain depth of substrate. Eventually you get to a depth where the water has already become depleted of the nitrates that we are hoping to remove.
That being said, it would probably depend on things like grain size water movement and maybe surface area. Or not. So I couldn't begin to comment on whether it's 6" or 36".
importfan878
Premium Member
how ocudl i plumb this into a non drilled/ sumpless( would this even be worth ti for a 30 gallon)
captbunzo
Premium Member
You do NOT want water churning up the sand.
You have to remember that when speaking in the terms aerobic, anoxic, and anaerobic, water is relatively LOADED with oxygen. Consequently, any sand bed which has water flowing through it will end up being aerobic, which defeats the entire point of what we are trying to accomplish here. I think the confusion comes in understanding HOW nitrates (and other molecules) come to exist in the anoxic and anaerobic layers of a sand bed. The answer is found in the wonder of diffusion. To quote google....
"The movement of suspended or dissolved particles from a more concentrated to a less concentrated area. The process tends to distribute the particles more uniformly." (source)
Furthermore, a more correct statement would be "the deeper the sand bed is, the larger this ANAEROBIC layer". Oxygen is going to diffuse only to a certain level in the sand. That is what forms the gradient from aerobic sand, to anoxic sand, and finally to anaerobic sand.
As far as the effectiveness of DEEPER sand beds. That's a tougher discussion. At a base level, the concept would be that there is an upper limit for how deep a sandbed needs to be. Each inch is going to provide you LESS AND LESS NNR (natural nitrate reduction) until finally you are just wasting space.
The tough part is the question "how deep". For a display tank, this is a little easier to answer based on existing publications.
But for a remote deep sand bed, this topic is less thoroughly documented. Based on the feedback and suggestions in this thread, one could say that you can go pretty deep and still get a benefit. In response to the "how deep a RDSB" question coming from folks in this thread with tanks 200G+ size, Anthony has suggested to get some sort of a trash can. A 55 gallon aquarium has also been suggested.
I, personally, am setting up a 55 gallon reef tank in my home right now. And I am going to be using a 5 gallon water cube (you know, the kind you can buy at your LFS in which to transport water?). I suspect that will help significantly and it is easy to setup.
And JimR, I would suggest you feed your sump (and protein skimmer) first, and then feed your RDSB via a powerhead in your sump. Overflow water should likely have the highest concentration of dissolved organics, which is what you want to be feeding to your protein skimmer, NOT your RDSB.
Anyhow, hope that helps some!
You have to remember that when speaking in the terms aerobic, anoxic, and anaerobic, water is relatively LOADED with oxygen. Consequently, any sand bed which has water flowing through it will end up being aerobic, which defeats the entire point of what we are trying to accomplish here. I think the confusion comes in understanding HOW nitrates (and other molecules) come to exist in the anoxic and anaerobic layers of a sand bed. The answer is found in the wonder of diffusion. To quote google....
"The movement of suspended or dissolved particles from a more concentrated to a less concentrated area. The process tends to distribute the particles more uniformly." (source)
Furthermore, a more correct statement would be "the deeper the sand bed is, the larger this ANAEROBIC layer". Oxygen is going to diffuse only to a certain level in the sand. That is what forms the gradient from aerobic sand, to anoxic sand, and finally to anaerobic sand.
As far as the effectiveness of DEEPER sand beds. That's a tougher discussion. At a base level, the concept would be that there is an upper limit for how deep a sandbed needs to be. Each inch is going to provide you LESS AND LESS NNR (natural nitrate reduction) until finally you are just wasting space.
The tough part is the question "how deep". For a display tank, this is a little easier to answer based on existing publications.
But for a remote deep sand bed, this topic is less thoroughly documented. Based on the feedback and suggestions in this thread, one could say that you can go pretty deep and still get a benefit. In response to the "how deep a RDSB" question coming from folks in this thread with tanks 200G+ size, Anthony has suggested to get some sort of a trash can. A 55 gallon aquarium has also been suggested.
I, personally, am setting up a 55 gallon reef tank in my home right now. And I am going to be using a 5 gallon water cube (you know, the kind you can buy at your LFS in which to transport water?). I suspect that will help significantly and it is easy to setup.
And JimR, I would suggest you feed your sump (and protein skimmer) first, and then feed your RDSB via a powerhead in your sump. Overflow water should likely have the highest concentration of dissolved organics, which is what you want to be feeding to your protein skimmer, NOT your RDSB.
Anyhow, hope that helps some!
I postulated about what I thikn occurs in this type of DSB about 5 pages back-- this post and another a few below it...
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=6241058#post6241058
On the molecular level, the nitrate won't have any problem getting past the sand particles--- it won't have to flow, only diffuse (dilute) and this occurs via the 2nd law of thermodynamics--- that is the motive force, not water flow....
Regarding how to plumb this in a sumpless system--- you would either have to put it above the tank-- pump up and let gravity drain back to the tank... or use a setup like this one..
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=6394225#post6394225
use good hose clamps and maybe even silicone the threads on the bottle when you screw on the top....
Anthony:
Would my Fluval 404 filled with Seachem's Matrix Bio Media, do the same or better than a 5 gal RDSB?
I already have the Fluval, and $13 for 2 liters of Matrix isnt too expensive.
http://seachem.com/products/product_pages/Matrix.html
http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=24221;category_id=2607;pcid1=1965;pcid2=
Would my Fluval 404 filled with Seachem's Matrix Bio Media, do the same or better than a 5 gal RDSB?
I already have the Fluval, and $13 for 2 liters of Matrix isnt too expensive.
http://seachem.com/products/product_pages/Matrix.html
http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=24221;category_id=2607;pcid1=1965;pcid2=
Anthony Calfo
New member
wow... some excellent posts! Fabulous input my friends. Paul... good to see you back too.
Anthony, good to see you're still around (even in a limited fashion).
Can you or someone else help clear up something for me?
Everyone keeps describing the sand band layers in this order from top to bottom: aerobic, anoxic, anaerobic.
And this is what I thought it would be too.
But Dr. Ron's article describes it as aerobic, anaerobic, anoxic.
Which one is correct?
Or is it just an issue of nomenclature?
Can you or someone else help clear up something for me?
Everyone keeps describing the sand band layers in this order from top to bottom: aerobic, anoxic, anaerobic.
And this is what I thought it would be too.
But Dr. Ron's article describes it as aerobic, anaerobic, anoxic.
Which one is correct?
Or is it just an issue of nomenclature?
What is the difference between this method and having a 7 or 8 inch bed in your refugium? In my setup, that would be a volume of nearly 5 gallons, but spread out over a wider surface. With only a few inches of water going over the sand, seems you could achieve the same type of flow.
mmmmsushi
New member
From what I understand there isn't a difference in function between the RDSB in a bucket vs. a DSP in a fuge. Both will sustain the bacteria to reduce nitrates. But the Remote DSB can be maintained more easily by prefiltering to reduce or eliminate detritus that may normally accumulate in a refugium. The RDSB is designed to be a plug and play where you just connect it and let it run with minimal to no maintenence.
kimoyo
Active member
I know a lot of people won't understand this or just not believe it, but wow...these are great posts, this is third year undergraduate physics. The forces at work here are so strong and on such a small scale that sand particles, which are relatively big, won't stop or hurt this diffusion process.
When people say that you need infauna/bioturbation (their primary function) to get nutrients to the lower levels of a sand bed I just don't understand why.
Just looking at the result of this thread should be enough proof.
You don't have to have any worms whatsoever. They are quite helpful but not necessary.
If you don't believe me, put a sugarcube in the bottom of a tall glass. Fill that glass with sugar-sized sand several inches deep. Pour some water on the top of the sand. Wait 15 minutes and then look through the bottom of the glass. The sugar cube will be dissolved.
ciaolong
New member
hi everyone i just wanted to know if this design of my DSB will work basicly i got 2 x 200L contaier which been cut in half so the end parts sit on each others
basicly the bottom compartment will have the dsb with an over back into the sump then the top compartment will have the raw water or filter by wool drip into the bottom compartment
will this work ? or the flow to little for a dsb ?
basicly the bottom compartment will have the dsb with an over back into the sump then the top compartment will have the raw water or filter by wool drip into the bottom compartment
will this work ? or the flow to little for a dsb ?
Well, I have one up and running for my 29g w/sump.
I happened to have a culligan 5 gal container, one of the cube shaped ones. I put a small maxijet in the return portion of the sump and ran this up to the container and let it drain back into the return.
I have a piece of filter pad to diffuse the flow a bit.
I'll report back!
I happened to have a culligan 5 gal container, one of the cube shaped ones. I put a small maxijet in the return portion of the sump and ran this up to the container and let it drain back into the return.
I have a piece of filter pad to diffuse the flow a bit.
I'll report back!
Hi folks, no I'm not trying to impersonate Anthony, and I'm not an expert by any stretch. This is an excerpt from another post.
So it is nomenclature.
Oxic = high oxygen zone
Hypoxic = low oxygen zone
Anoxic = devoid of oxygen zone
Aerobic = a process that occurs in an Oxic zone
( Faculative ) Non-Obligate Anaerobes process in the Hypoxic zone
Anaerobic = a process that occurs in an Anoxic zone
Happy Reef Keeping > barryhc
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