DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[Spuds725]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6623049#post6623049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
Spuds, I don't think your set-up has had enough time yet. My tank took about 6 mos. to start dropping Nitrates. I had a considerable bioload in the tank. Be patient, and keep feeding to a minimum. You could feed a small amount only every other day, and the denitrification would "come on sooner", and it won't harm your fish at all.

> Barry

Thanks for the response Barry...

I wasn't expecting significant reduction yet-- Patience is necessary in all aspects of this hobby...I was just posting my results so far (since somebody asked for this).... there have been surprisingly few people posting their results with this method (in a thread this long)-- From what I read it takes about a month for the RDSB to show any result at all-- low to no nitrates will obviously take longer from where I'm starting...

I feed daily-- my Tang is a little "ichy" (occasional minor outbreaks) and I feed daily to help him fight this...I also don't like to starve my fish (I don't enjoy skipping eating a day and I don't think my fish would either--yes they will survive-- but fish spend all day in the wild looking for food-- I don't believe skipping a day is healthy for them) and won't skip days until my fuge is up and supplementing some pods to the tank so they can at least forage...I don't want to take this off topic and into a debate about feeding practices...

I do plan on hypo treating everyone (for the ich) as soon as I get my old tank (72 gallon) drained and moved to my basement-- which would require me to have some free time....another story--- I work alot of hours and have 2 small kids (3 year old and a 10 month old) that take up alot of time (another one arriving in about 6 1/2 weeks)-- and have alot of projects going on.... so its just a matter of finding time... I expect my trates to drop off in my display when I'm doing my hypo--- Since I am fugeless right now (back to having free time) hopefully will start cultivating some macro in it for the tang to eat which will start to limit the input of nutrients into the system (since the trates will start being recycled to macro and back to food)....

anyway just explaining why I posted and my situation--

 

[Skepperz]

Is there anything we can do to kick-start the bacteria process? So denitrification can start processing sooner?

From what i have read, it is just a matter of waiting for the nitrates to go down. But is there a product we can buy to seed the RDSB? Or is that un-heard of?

 

[eshook]

Skepperz,

I don't think you can see the sandbed with the bacteria we need to jumpstart the sandbed. We need low/no oxygen bacteria to populate the bottom of the sandbed. To get them there you will need to pull them from another low/no oxygen sandbed and to do that (unless they have a drain at the bottom of their sandbed, such as Barry's plenum waste) you cannot extract them without first introducing oxygen to the bed killing the original sandbed. Then you must get the low/no oxygen bacteria into another low/no oxygen environment at the bottom of the bucket (hard when it is full of oxygenated water)

I just don't see it happening, but maybe someone will have a good idea for it? Anyone?...

 

[Skepperz]

eshook,

You have made some very valid points!

Draining an existing sandbed for bacteria sounds almost impossible without killing it, sucking too much air too fast would kill it i reccon. Introducing bacteria (that is if it survived the extraction) back into a new setup would again be difficult because you have to introduce the bacteria back into the low/no oxygen area(its home). So where is that low/no oxygen area? do we have any facts on that yet? It must be different on each system, or will it allways be found on the same level on every system you test? I know we have discussed this allready.......but i would like some clarification.

Just my 2Cents!!

Thanks guys!

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6628622#post6628622 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Skepperz
Introducing bacteria (that is if it survived the extraction) back into a new setup would again be difficult because you have to introduce the bacteria back into the low/no oxygen area(its home). So where is that low/no oxygen area? do we have any facts on that yet? It must be different on each system, or will it allways be found on the same level on every system you test?

The "Hypoxic" ( low oxygen ) zone is in different locations in different tanks, and even within the same tank! All IS NOT LOST however. The bacteria that work for us to convert Nitrite to Nitrate, are called " (Faculative) Non-Obligate Anaerobes".

These are Bacteria that CAN live in Anoxic ( oxygen devoid ) conditions, but DO NOT require it, as do "Obligate Anaerobes".

This means that they can live in either Anoxic ( oxygen devoid ), or Hypoxic ( low oxygen ) , or even Oxic ( oxygenated ) environments. These bacteria do a different kind of work depending on the environment they are exposed to.

What this means, is that if you take bacteria from a known Oxic zone, you are likely to get MOSTLY Aerobic bacteria. If you Get them from an Anoxic zone, you will get MOSTLY "Obligate Anaerobes". Neither of these two survivie in a Hypoxic Zone, but guess what ?

Non-Obligate Anaerobes can exist there, and so they have "free reign" there, so sure enough, that is what you find.

www.InlandAquatics.com sells "Live sand Activator" packs, which they reccomend for new sand beds. The instructions are to prepare the lower portion of your bed ( less than 1/4 depth ), then deposit an activator packs contents at either end of the tank next to the glass, and cover immediately with the remainder of substrate to maintain the low/no oxygen condition that they prefer. Finish aquascaping and add water. $10 a pound I believe.

This works, I've done it. I'm sure the only reason for "next to the glass", is so you can see the eventual worm activity.

Heh ? > Barry

 

[Marcelog]

For those that are looking for updates, I started the RDSB in early December. Nitrates were reading around 50-60. For the past two weeks, they've been reading around 20. Seems to be doing it's job.

Marcelo -

 

[eshook]

Wow! What an improvement Marcelog. Have you changed anything else? (i.e. lowered the feeding amount, started growing macro, etc.) We would like to know exactly what caused the huge drop. I hope its RDSB that helped but it could be other variables. Could you please list everything that has changed in routine since then?

Thanks,
(Just amazed!)

 

[Spuds725]

Also Marcelog if you could post your tank size, inhabintants, RDSB size, and type of sand you would probably help out alot of people.

I imagine it is working well for you with such a large drop....

My concern is mine might not be large enough for my tank size, feeding regimine, etc...

 

[Skepperz]

Thanks barryhc!

It sure makes allot more sense for me now, think I might go ahead and plumb my RDSB into my system. I haven't yet for the sole reason that I didn't understand the bacteria process. But now thanks to barryhc and a whole range of other people, i can set it up and have a good understanding of the how the RDSB works!

Great thread! We should start a new one soon tho........this one is massive!!

 

[Marcelog]

None of my feeding or husbandry tactics have changed. I do feed way more than I should.

I have a 72 gallon bow front with a 15 gallon sump/fuge. The RDSB is a 5 gallon bucket filled 3/4 with sand I picked up from a local reefer that used it to make agrocrete rocks. Pushing water through it with a fluval 404 that I run carbon and phosguard in.

As for inhabitants, I've got a Koran Angel which is in the process of converting to his adult colors, a Large tang, 2 percula's a mandarin, and a blenny. Several different shrimp, and an assorted cleanup crew which probably needs to be replenished.

Marcelo -

 

[eshook]

Does your bow or sump have a regular DSB, plenum, etc? I wonder how your 5 gallon bucket got nitrates down so quickly. I'm most certainly glad you did but I think this adds support that a RDSB idea will work. Many more test cases need to be run before saying it is completely successful, but I think we are on the right track. Thanks Marcelog for getting us there! Keep posting updates so we can track you status.

 

[Marcelog]

Neither my tank nor sump have a DSB in them. Main tank has a 1-2" layer of CC, and the sump is bare.

I don't think the RDSB did it all by itself. I do 10-15 gallong water changes weekly. I've been doing that since I started the tank. I think the RDSB has made it so the water changes are making more of an impact.

Marcelo -

 

[Spuds725]

Thanks for posting more info Marcelog--

Your tank sounds alot like my last one-- gotta love them big sumps you can fit in the 72 Bow front stand (15 gallon was the biggest standard tank I could get in my stand without removing the center cross brace).

How is your mandarin doing... hopefully it takes prepared food-- thats kind of a small tank and fuge for a mandarin to thrive in.

 

[Marcelog]

Mandarin is doing great. He's fat and happy. I did wait quite some time building the pods up before adding him, and I add some bottled pods every once in a while to help keep the population up.

And you're right, the BF stand is cramped and stinks. I've actually got a rubbermaid container under the tank with about 15 gallons of water in it.

Marcelo -

 

[steve9k]

Spuds, I'd like to know how it goes for you -- please keep us updated. I've had my DSB going for 31 days now and haven't seen my nitrates budge at all -- still at about 40. I thought only a month would show progress, but apparently that's just not the case...

 

[Spuds725]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6640535#post6640535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marcelog
Mandarin is doing great. He's fat and happy. I did wait quite some time building the pods up before adding him, and I add some bottled pods every once in a while to help keep the population up.

And you're right, the BF stand is cramped and stinks. I've actually got a rubbermaid container under the tank with about 15 gallons of water in it.

Marcelo -

Good to hear (about the Mandarin)-- amazing looking fish.

Were we seperated at birth?? My old tank was a 72 bow (still up, but empty) ... my first sump was a 15 gallon rubbermaid... replaced by a 15 gallon glass tank.

Will do Steve-- I've been following this thread for a few months.

FYI-- my current setup... tank has been up for 3 months (upgrade from a 72)

135 gallon tank, 200 pounds live rock (approximately), about 20 gallons of water in my sump. No Refugium-- but I do plan on adding one soon-- Tank has a shallow sand bed of about 1 inch o Caribsea Special grade aragonite reef sand (1 to 2 mm grain size)

RDSB-- 50 pounds of Quikrete white play sand with a thin layer of my caribsea sand on top-- its running on a loop from my sump from an MJ1200

Inhabitants--
(2) Gold striped Maroon Clowns (4 1/2" and 2")
(1) Hippo Tang (4")
(1) Bi-Color Angel (3")
(1) Orchid Dottyback (3")
Cleaner shrimp
Bunch of hemits (at least 30)
Snails-- a few turbos, a few Astrea snails, 1 cerith, 7 Nassarius Vibex
A long tentacled anemone- not sure of species
Button Polyps, Some Shrooms, A few Leathers.

My makeup water is all RO/DI-- I just replaced my DI resin, it was completely exhausted-- so I was adding just RO water for a while (8 ppm TDS)-- 0 TDS now..

Although I have high trates, I have virtually no hair algae problems-- just a little bit that the snails keep up with without a problem...I do have pretty good coraline growth

I'm purposely not doing any water changes right now, just to see if the RDSB is doing anything-- When I do do one I will test before and after so I know how much it affects the nitrate level.

 

[kysmith]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6363346#post6363346 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kysmith
I have a 29G tank and had a 10g tank all plumbed for turning into a fuge. When I saw this thread I decided to give a RDSB a try first since I hadn't added the macro and water yet. I just installed a 4-5" DSB in the 10g tank and have about 2-3" of water running over it. I'll keep everyone updated about the progress of the tank.

Kyle

Update

Nitrates are undetectable now, I've switched some other things around as well so I can't attribute this to the RDSB for certain but it seems to work.

 

[vikubz]

I think it bears mentioning for anyone who's new to the hobby that the RDSB method is in addition to regular tank upkeep, not in place of.

Fer instance, you still need a good skimmer, don't overfeed, don't overstock and periodic water changes.

I can see someone thinking that they'll save a bundle of money by skipping a protein skimmer and just setting up a bucket of sand.

Just a thought.

 

[Skepperz]

Yr.....thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s why I thought cutting back the thread would be a good idea! Lay out the facts and for everyone to see rather than having to read through 25 pages.

 

[Spuds725]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6651223#post6651223 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Skepperz
Yr.....thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s why I thought cutting back the thread would be a good idea! Lay out the facts and for everyone to see rather than having to read through 25 pages.

It will split in 10 more pages anyway...

I agree on not using this to be lazy--- I hate doing big water changes to lower nitrates though--- in a larger tank like mine you need to do 30-40 gallons at a time to make a dent in them.