Dsb's work, what makes them work best?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474206#post6474206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
I realize that silica is frowned upon in some cases because of "potential" diatom blooms. I'm not particularly convinced, but of more importance, to me anyway, would be the smoothness.

Is silica that harmful to the animals, and if so, are there alternatives, that are available down to .1 or .2mm?

I gotta ask this question. Why is important that the animals survive? Theoretically, aren't DSB's supposed to work by allowing denitrification to occur deep within the bed? Wouldn't it be okay to have a totally sterile aerobic layer (at least as far as infauna go) which gets stirred by stars, conchs, other large critters. At least theoretically shouldn't this work just fine? This is the idea behind the "DSB in a bucket" discussion from Anthony's forum, right?

This is why I asked the earlier question about whether the infauna or critters said to be necessary in a properly functioning DSB are actually doing practically all the work instead of the aforementioned denitrification in the lower areas.

Thoughts?
 
Silicate IS NOT Silica. Chemically different.

Silicates cause diatoms....silica is glass!

One benefit (sort of) of silica over aragonite.....silca based sand beds won't solidify like aragonite will under certain conditions.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474179#post6474179 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kbmdale
For instance, I started a set-up with 10lbs of LR and 40lbs of dry base rock.. After 6 weeks you could tell no difference. As far as the base rock being less porous, I disagree..Its the same rock just dead..Or at my lfs it is. Now I can't speak of TBS or the really really good quality LR, I haven't found any that quality around here. But in May when I take the trip to FT. Myers for the in-law visit/vacation I will stop by TBS and pick up some of thier rock.

What kind of base rock did you use, Kris? I used reef bones and as far as I can tell they are just live rock that has been dried out as about half of them appeared to be just calcified coral skeletons. They even had purple on them from dead coralline.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474398#post6474398 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aubee91
But IIRC, Dr. Ron says that the fauna on live rocks won't
populate the DSB anyway as they are not benthic. If so, seems like the critters on the live rock wouldn't be useful for DSB waste processing anyway.

I've had numerous polychaetes that live in my rock migrate to my sandbed. I've had Nemerteans live in my sand. (Actually that's not a good thing but they also came from my LR). I've had what is commonly called spaghetti worms migrate to my sand.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474516#post6474516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by inwall75
I've had numerous polychaetes that live in my rock migrate to my sandbed. I've had Nemerteans live in my sand. (Actually that's not a good thing but they also came from my LR). I've had what is commonly called spaghetti worms migrate to my sand.

So at least some of the live rock fauna is at least "part time" benthic and live rock is useful in seeding the DSB.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474398#post6474398 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aubee91
But IIRC, Dr. Ron says that the fauna on live rocks won't
populate the DSB anyway as they are not benthic. If so, seems like the critters on the live rock wouldn't be useful for DSB waste processing anyway.

This can't be true, and I'll tell you why I think so. I have micro stars that were in my sand that go back and forth from sand to rock, and this includes as high up as 18" on the rock. The same is true of bristle worms, copepods, and other little critters.

I can't believe that these animals would somehow be much more "selective" in the wild.

What's up? > barryhc :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474486#post6474486 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aubee91
I gotta ask this question. Why is important that the animals survive? Theoretically, aren't DSB's supposed to work by allowing denitrification to occur deep within the bed? Wouldn't it be okay to have a totally sterile aerobic layer (at least as far as infauna go) which gets stirred by stars, conchs, other large critters. At least theoretically shouldn't this work just fine? This is the idea behind the "DSB in a bucket" discussion from Anthony's forum, right?

This is why I asked the earlier question about whether the infauna or critters said to be necessary in a properly functioning DSB are actually doing practically all the work instead of the aforementioned denitrification in the lower areas.

Thoughts?

Aubee,

Critters help with bioturbation because a bed is less efficient working with only diffusion. Will it work....you betcha. Is it more efficient with bioturbation...you betcha.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474496#post6474496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onthefly
Silicate IS NOT Silica. Chemically different.

Silicates cause diatoms....silica is glass!

One benefit (sort of) of silica over aragonite.....silca based sand beds won't solidify like aragonite will under certain conditions.

Quite true. I'm trying to not get too technical so that people new to the hobby aren't scared away. Maybe it is a mistake for me to do this but only time will tell.

You have to make a pretty big mistake to make aragonite turn into a brick. However, it can and has been done before.

BTW.....I realize that I didn't mention that sandblaster's sand is silicate sand.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474486#post6474486 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aubee91
I gotta ask this question. Why is important that the animals survive? Theoretically, aren't DSB's supposed to work by allowing denitrification to occur deep within the bed? Wouldn't it be okay to have a totally sterile aerobic layer (at least as far as infauna go) which gets stirred by stars, conchs, other large critters. At least theoretically shouldn't this work just fine? This is the idea behind the "DSB in a bucket" discussion from Anthony's forum, right?

Well, I can't say if it is right or not, but it is the kind of information that I'm looking for, so you kind of "hit the nail right on the head".

I'll have to reread that discussion. Can you give us the link in your next post?

This is why I asked the earlier question about whether the infauna or critters said to be necessary in a properly functioning DSB are actually doing practically all the work instead of the aforementioned denitrification in the lower areas.

Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure that the inhauna, or at least some of them, are travelling verticaly in the substrate, and this moves both nutrients and oxygen, deeper into the bed.

That having been said, it could be that the denitrification would still occur without them, but likely not nearly so effectively, and then there is the "clumping" as well, that they are supposed to help mitigate.

Good questions!! > barryhc :) :)

ooPS: You type too fast Curt !!!! :lol: :lol:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474338#post6474338 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by npaden
Also, on the rock cooking issue. I cured my rock in my display with a brand new sandbed. It was the "plant rock" from walt smith and I worked out a deal where it was drop shipped to me directly with a person at LAX just relabeling the address and sending it on the next flight out to me. This rock arrived fresh from the ocean and was about 36 hours of transit time with wet newspapers and plastic bags. At the time walt smith left the plant rock in the ocean until time to ship and then pulled it out and packaged it with none of the "precuring" techniques. Other than dealing with a lot of sargassum growth at the start (which probably consumed any nutrients that were released from the rocks) I haven't had any issues with not "cooking" my rocks.

I also didn't jam pack my tank with rocks, I cured about 200lbs of rock in my 415g tank this way in 3 separate batches so I never had an ammonia or nitrite or even a nitrate spike that was measurable. I moved about 125lbs of rock from my existing tank after everything was up and running for a few months. Some of the rock that I have I got used from a tank that was completely covered in hair algae (I did scrub the rock with a toothbrush and dunked it in a bucket of tank water when I got the rock to clean the algae off of it) and that rock is getting close to 10 years old and has never been "cooked" and has no algae issues that I've noticed.

Just another opinion on rock cooking.

FWIW, Nathan

I got the same rock for WS. It reminds me of the way quality LR used to be. I also got 88lbs of Tonga but IMO it wasnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t worth it. The Fiji "natural" as WS calls it is nice stuff, its packed far wetter than other rock. Starting with high quality biodiverse (sp?) LR is key IMO.

I feel most issues come down to IN vs. OUT. What goes in must come out at some point. If you can achieve a balance between nutrient imports and exports you will be successful.

-Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474573#post6474573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by inwall75
Aubee,

Critters help with bioturbation because a bed is less efficient working with only diffusion. Will it work....you betcha. Is it more efficient with bioturbation...you betcha.

Okay, I'm unfamiliar with the difference between bioturbation and just frequent stirring. This bioturbation only occurs in the aerobic portion of the bed, right? So what is it about the bioturbation that increases the efficiency compared to frequent stirring by larger critters? Is it simply because there are so many of the smaller critters and they just turn the grains over more frequently on average?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474641#post6474641 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
Well, I can't say if it is right or not, but it is the kind of information that I'm looking for, so you kind of "hit the nail right on the head".

I'll have to reread that discussion. Can you give us the link in your next post?

Here's the thread. Be forewarned that it's pretty long.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=595109
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474201#post6474201 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sindjin
I used 50lbs of base rock from reeferrocks.com. It was really nice, porous rock.... I would reccomend it!
Your base rock is a lot nicer than the stuff we get in at the LFS. It's a terrestrial limestone that has close to zero porosity. The stuff you're describing sounds like it's much better for a reef tank.

Just because no one else has done one, here's a sum-up of what I think I've taken from this thread (or as a starter for new discussion points):

1) Good curing of liverock (cooking or some other good mode of curing) is essential for a healthy, non-nutrient-loaded DSB. We pretty much have a consensus on that. We still appear to be undecided on the mode of curing (as well as LR composition, base vs. natural), but there appear to be many that work.

2) Particle size is important, but undecided. So far, a lot of people seem to avoid using the extremely fine sands, but there doesn't appear to be any real downside to very fine ones except for the potential for sandstorms. On that note, sandstorms seem to be easily avoided with some good planning (personal note to retailers: do not put gobies in sand tanks unless you want to play the "catch me in one minute or you won't be able to see me" game). There does seem to be a consensus that finer is better than coarse, due to the potential for nutrient traps (personally, I'm seeing one of those "moderation is key" scenarios, with the best results coming from mixed grades between the two extremes).

3) There are interesting thoughts on sand composition. It appears that (surprise, surprise) the different compositions (silica-based, calcite, aragonite) have distinct advantages and disadvantages. It also seems that they can all work with due planning (I prefer aragonite, but, having not tried the others, I can't really comment on them). There seems to be a fair consensus that mud would be less preferable, due to the fact that such mud is often used (but not always) when more nutrients are required. Again, I can't comment on that, not having tried mud.

4) There is a general idea of bed depth, with the minimum around 3"-4" (with more emphasis on he thicker 4"), but there is not quite a general consensus. There are also some interesting ideas with uniform vs. varied thickness, again with both providing good results.

5) A lot of DSB "crashes" (quotes used because there is not quite a consensus on the meaning of that term) occur around 1-2 years of age. Personally, I think this is because of fanual extinctions and the concurrent loss of waste-processing ability, though I have no experimental data to back that up (there are, however, studies that have shown extinction around 2 years; they just haven't related that to processing ability). Of course, as this is the subject of the discussion, we most certainly have not arrived at a conclusion on this point (why DSBs fail at times). Personally, I think it will end up being a combination of many factors, including [but not limited to] faunal extinction and use of improperly cured live rock.

OK, I think that's where we are in the "DSB optimization" discussion. Please correct me in the likely event that I have forgotten something or been in error. I hope everyone else has found this discussion as enjoyable as I have.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474678#post6474678 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aubee91
Okay, I'm unfamiliar with the difference between bioturbation and just frequent stirring. This bioturbation only occurs in the aerobic portion of the bed, right? So what is it about the bioturbation that increases the efficiency compared to frequent stirring by larger critters? Is it simply because ther are so many of the smaller critters and they just turn the grains over more frequently on average?

Bioturbation is basically the mixing/turning over of sediments....what is typically called sand-stirring. It helps move water and it's wastes around. There are some critters who will go to the anaerobic portion of the bed but not many. Basically, the denitrification is NOT occurring in the anaerobic section of your sandbed...it is occurring at the anoxic interface. The more water you can get to this anoxic interface, the more efficient your bed is at denitrification.

On a newer bed, this anoxic interface is much deeper than on an older bed. Other critters are quite helpful then. On an older bed, you might be fine with critters that don't go too deep. EDIT: But will it still work without them? Yes.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474620#post6474620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by inwall75
You have to make a pretty big mistake to make aragonite turn into a brick. However, it can and has been done before.

Doesn't the particle size have some effect on this, especially if you disturb the sand quite often by stirring, etc., which causes large pH fluctuations, and affects the "adsorption VS release"
of phosphate as well?

BTW.....I realize that I didn't mention that sandblaster's sand is silicate sand.

Posted by onthefly:
--------------------------------------------------------
Silicate IS NOT Silica. Chemically different.

Silicates cause diatoms....silica is glass!
--------------------------------------------------------

So is it Silicate sand, or Silica sand?

Thanks > barryhc
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474678#post6474678 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aubee91
Is it simply because there are so many of the smaller critters and they just turn the grains over more frequently on average?

I think that is one of the big advantages, and it is particularly useful in avoiding clumping. Also, however, the infauna "eat", and then they are eaten. Eventually they get turned into fish poop, which is highly skimmable, and represents a net export.

Thanks again! > barryhc :)
 
LOL....I'm going to quit taking shortcuts in my explanations.

Si is on the periodic table. Any variation would not be Silicon. I tend to use variations of it (as I do with many other elements) as one to keep things simple.
 
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Silica sand....Its funny when it comes to sand that the hobby veiws silica as BAD...But when it comes to tanks no one seems to care that the glass and seal is made of the same thing...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6474913#post6474913 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by inwall75
LOL....I'm going to quit taking shortcuts in my explanations.

shortcuts are only good for one thing, GETTING LOST..lol...everytime I try a short cut , I get lost... :lol:
 
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