Dying fish, lots of details, please read.

[Blitzburggirl]

I have a problem, and it's making me sad, frustrated, and angry. Most of all- sad. worried2 Let me set the stage....

I bought a running 60 (had been running for years) with a S gigantea in it. Move and set that up Feb 4 2012. No cycle detected. Gigantea and corals look GREAT. Purchased a gum drop coral croucher and mystery wrasse from Divers Den early Feb. QT'd (in a different tank) for about 2 weeks and verified the 60 was still stable. Added them to the 60 the last week of February.

March 24th, I broke down my 180 tank, and the only animals I kept were my clownfish pair (breeding percs) my potters angel, and a serpent star I've had nearly 3 years.

I'd had my Potters angel since Dec 2010. It was gorgeous. Mostly blue, the most electric blue I've ever seen. It was a jerk. It was the only fish I had that would stand up to my purple tang.

My clownfish were at least 3 years old, and I'd had them for 2 and a half of that. She was hosted by my LTA, a haddoni, and then the gigantea.

So, the tank is 60 gallon cube, MP40, 250w MH and - Potters angel, 2 percs, gigantea, mystery wrasse, gumdrop coral croucher. Starfish, snails, hermits and corals. No biopellets, no reactors, no dosing.

Sounds great, right?

Not so much.
Last Monday (the 23rd) the Potters ate GREAT. As always. Then, Tuesday, when I got home, he was laying on his side, dead, on top of a chalice. The chalice was about 2 inches across and circular. The entire chalice was smoked (goo.) I figured the gig got ahold of the angel, but it was strong enough to get away, but still had tentacles stuck to it, landed on the chalice, and the sting plus rotting angel smoked the chalice. I hated it, but, there was nothing I could do, right? I removed the body
I tested my water...
Nitrate 10 API
Amm undetectable API
Nitrite undetectable API
pH 8.0 API
And did a water change.

LAST NIGHT! I got home, and my female clown was looking "foggy" and swimming weird.. I took my son to soccer, and when I got home, she was in the opposite corner of the tank, on her side, barely breathing. This fish NEVER left her anemones, unless it was to grab food, and returned quickly. She was 100% healthy in appearance. I'm sooooooooo dang mad!!
I used my feeding tongs to nudge her. She barely moved. Hate me or not, I prepared an ice bath and put her in it. She's frozen in a bag in my freezer now.

Here's the deal. I tested my water- again last night. Parameters were all the same, I also tested salinity, and it was 1.025. I have no idea what the heck is going on in my tank, and it is infuriating me. These are fish I've had for a while. The mystery wrasse looks fine, as does the croucher.

I told you the theory I had on the angel. But that can't be the case with the clown. The male clown, which is very melanistic, looks great as well. The croucher has been perching in an acro at the front left corner of my tank, the clowns and the gig are more toward the right. The idea was brought up last night, that the angel (a very aggressive angel) and the female clown (was getting ready for another spawn, ovipositor was out) are the two fish in the tank, most likely to go after the croucher.

I know DFS has these guys regularly, and that they get snapped up quick. So, I know there are more and more people with them now. Anyone have any feedback as to aggressive (or defensive) hits on other fish? I've not seen any interaction between any of the fish and the croucher.

Help! Ideas PLEASE!!!

 

[Blitzburggirl]

 

[snorvich]

Quarantine for 2 weeks is not sufficient. I recommend 4 weeks minimum. There is NO online vendor that will provide parasite free fish guaranteed; Drs. Foster and Smith and DD are certainly one of the best if not the best. Based on the timeline sounds like velvet.

 

[Blitzburggirl]

I agree to a point. I would have liked to technically QT longer, and, in actuality, QT in terms of observation prior to exposure to other fish was from Feb 7th to Mar 24, so it was actually more like a QT for 6 weeks. There were no other fish in the 60 from the time I moved it (and it had been fallow for a while prior- and the fish the previous owner had had in it were gorgeous.. I saw them ) and none in it until I added my established animals.

The 3 fish added to the tank on Mar 24 had been in my possession for over 1 year (Potters) and over 2 years on the clowns.

Does velvet progress from looking 100% perfect one evening, to dead the next?

I've never dealt with it, personally, so any insight is appreciated.

 

[snorvich]

Virtually always there are warnings: fish become somewhat reclusive, hang near power heads or returns. If not velvet, I am at a loss.

 

[snorvich]

The Gumdrop Coral Croucher resembles a goby and is actually a member of the scorpionfish family. These fish are native to the reefs in the Coral Sea. They are often found in and about both hard and soft corals. This fish is gray/white in color with many red dots covering the body. The entire body is covered with small hair-like appendages which gives this fish a fuzzy appearance.

The spines on the dorsal fins of this fish are venomous. If you are stung, the reaction may be similar to a bee sting only a little stronger. Any chance this was the problem? I do not have experience with the fish.

 

[snorvich]

Double post, sorry.

 

[dannyp02908]

I didnt see anything in your params in regards to alkalinity. This can cause issues. Also, i agree with velvet as a possibilty. Maybe brooklynella as well. things you can check.

 

[Blitzburggirl]

Thats what I'm worried about.. I observed the fish that died for long time, and didn't notice odd or alarming behavior, and, both being the more aggressive fish, it worries me they may have attacked the Croucher and came away worse for wear.
I was under the impression the Croucher was to be reclusive and mind it's own business. There is very limited information about them... I am hoping someone here may have some more experience with them. If a fish is invenomated, is it lethal? When they die, what do they look like?

 

[Blitzburggirl]

Admittedly, I don't know a lot about diseases... I've been blessed to keep my fish long term. I've read up on velvet.... I don't *think* that's it.... I'll read up on Brooklynella again (been probably 3-4 years since I read about that). My clowns are tank bred and raised, nearly 3 years old and haven't been exposed to other clowns...

When I think of Brooklynella, I think "clownfish disease" is that right? Can angels get that?

 

[Blitzburggirl]

Ahhhh and alk, I'll check tonight....

 

[snorvich]

Well brook can affect fish other than clowns, but that too would have a precursor.

 

[Octoberfest]

I saw all of these fish recently, the clownfish less than a few days before it died and none of them showed any signs of disease at all. They were fat and happy and all very active.

The owner is very careful with her tank and takes a lot of precautions that many of us throw to the side.

Personally I'm wondering if the Croucher is the issue. The reason I say that is because the two fish that are now dead would be the first ones in her tank to act aggressive towards another fish. The acro that the croucher perched on was "dead" in the middle and could have been growing some alge that the Potter's was nipping at and in the process there may have been a confrontation with the croucher and the Potters...again this is speculation. Then maybe the croucher got too close to the clownfish's anemone and the female decided to "move" her away with her mouth..we all know how that can be. In the process maybe both animals got stung by the croucher.

It doesn't seem as though there is a lot of information out there on these fish so it's hard to determine if that could be the cause. I still don't think it was some sort of disease though, but that's just my opinion.

 

[f3honda4me]

Brook and Velvet can kill in less than 12 hours once you see the "external" symptoms. So a fish looking fine a couple days before catching something like brook doesn't really mean anything. :/

On another note, having a GIG in a 60 cube with fish other than clownfish is probably going to lead to more dead/missing fish. A GIG will be very agressive toward any other fish that get near it or that it can get hold of. It's certainly another possibility in this, and is not unheard of for a gig to even kill a clownfish on rare occasion.

 

[Blitzburggirl]

Thanks you all for the help My alk was 9 last night btw (personal victory!! In my 180 it was a struggle to keep it above 8 )

At the risk of sounding whiney, or... ummmmmm b*tchy lol I'm going to say that I still have no idea what killed my fish, and it really is upsetting. I've done a ton of reading now, about brooklynella and velvet.. and, I still don't think that's it. I still have my female clown frozen in the refrigerator. Is there perhaps somewhere I can send her for a quality necropsy, and perhaps determine her cause of death?

As far as going forward steps... I'm seriously considering removing the croucher.

I do take alot of precautions that some put to the wayside, and I know that I also take some unnecessary risk too. I totally get that.

Thank you f3honda4me for the warning on the gig. In all seriousness, I had the clowns and this angel in the tank with a supersized blue haddoni in a 180. I also had a magnificent fox (that the haddoni did eat - but it was blind and weakened) and purple tang and a borbonias anthias as well. Not to mention the dwarf angel in an SPS dominant reef. Granted these were in a 180, but, it's still a huge expensive risk.

Risk aversion isn't an affliction of mine, as long as I can gauge the risk. I know that the gig in a 60 is risk, but it's a rather small risk, that I am willing to take. How many people actually have observed a gigantea anemone killing/eating a HEALTHY fish? I know what happens when an anemone eats a fish, and I'd bet the house that the anemone didn't do this... The biggest risk I'm taking here, all joking aside, is sticking my arm in a 60 gallon aquarium with this anemone. Just the lightest brush while cleaning glass lights my arm up for weeks at a time.

Anyways, I'm pretty convinced the croucher is my culprit, but, it wouldn't be the first time I am wrong about something. And, given that I hope to live a few more moments here, I'm sure it won't be the last.

 

[seapug]

I have a spotted coral croucher in my tank (somewhere) and never had any issues with it (I have a busy tank with 2 tangs, wrasses, blennies, cardinals). I would assume that any confrontation that would have resulted in the death of your clown and angel would have left some sort of mark on the coral croucher. Are there any visible "battle wounds" on the croucher?

 

[Blitzburggirl]

That makes sense... Unfortunately, no marks on the croucher

 

[jamesdean3]

that pic really looks alot like brook/velvet. I just lost a pair of seemingly healthy Onyx clowns to Brook and unfortunatley your fish does resemeble mine. Death occured within 8 hours of visible symptoms, after 3 months alone in my DT that was setup 2 months prior and fallow. When you DT'd did you treat the fish with any prazi-pro or the like for potential parasites? My clowns seemed fine for the 3 months they were in my tank, then boom!....dead clowns. Don't mean to insight fear just want you to be safe with your remaining fish. GL and keep usposted

 

[jamesdean3]

The sloughing of the skin in the pic is a sympton common to both of those parasites.

 

[Blitzburggirl]

No, I didn't treat the wrasse or the croucher with prazi pro or anything I wish I had.

FWIW, the croucher, the wrasse and the male clown looked great last night...