EcoSystems

Hdhuntr01

Member
Yesterday I attended a briefing by Leng Sy the inventor of the EcoSystem Miracle Mud. Sounded interesting and he provided some strong support of the concept. I am setting up a 185 Gallon mixed reef and am thinking about going this route. Basically stated the system does not use a protein skimmer, it uses a refugium containing a 1 1/4" deep bed of Miracle Mud with a flow of 1000+ GPH.

Looking to see if anyone is currently using this system or has used it in the past. Would like to hear your personal review and all the Pros and Cons you experienced.

Thanks
 
According to their own discription, on their site, they harvest this mud from deep under the ocean. The mud deep under the ocean typically consists of dead plankton, fish poo, and other organic matter that drifts to the bottom and rots. It also contains living organisms that feed on this rotting organic matter. Passing currents flow over this mud, picking up the nutrients it discharges, transferring them to shallow water, where it is exposed to light and creates algae blooms. (most of us don't want algae blooms in our tanks)

Again, according to their site, they take this mud, (full of living organisms and rotting organic matter), and dry it out on land. What happens to the living organisms in this mud when it's dried out on land? Naturally, they die. Now you have dry mud that's loaded with all the organisms they killed, and all the dead organic matter that rained down on it in the ocean. What happens to dead organic material when you place it in a warm, moist environment like a reef tank? It rots. Ask any gardener what happens when organic matter rots, and they will tell you it releases fertilizer, like nitrogen and phosphate. This is the whole reason why they use compost piles.

We spend massive amounts of time and money to rid our systems of fertilizers. We buy chemical absorption media and reactors to house it in, expensive skimmers, water changes, carbon dosing, and even grow algae in dedicated areas of the system. All in an attempt to keep the concentration of nutrients that are released through decomposition out of our systems. Why then, would we want to take mud from the bottom of the ocean, dry it out on land, then put it in our tanks? It's counter productive. It will simply cause us to spend more money and time trying to eliminate these substances, and put the well being of those animals that are sensitive to these substances at risk. It is simply a gimmick that makes the company a whole bunch of money.
 
Elegance Coral,

Please let me know what personal experience you have had with using EcoSystem's methods. I don't personally know you but I do know Steve Tyree, and know of Mike Paletta and Chris Cefola. All three are advocates of the EcoSystem Method. Just wanted to know your own experience level.

Respectfully...
 
I'm current going with a 3-4 bed of MM in my systems refugium w/ Cheato. I feel this depth doubles as a deep bed. Been running since January 11, no problems and my nitrates have been 20 or less. I do have a skimmer however its not super effective as I don't have an ATO system. However many who use MM still have skimmers.
 
This thread may answer a lot of your questions"¦"¦"¦he is an advocate of using Miracle Mud. I'd say Miracle Mud has merit!

Large Reef Tanks

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I used the mud for about 6 months. It did seem to do what it claimed to do but one way or another something would disturb it causing a mud storm and my tank would be cloudy for days and my corals would retract. Changing the mud is a royal PIA too. The first time I changed was the last!,,just WAY to messy for me! one thumb up and one thumb down.
 
I had an ecosystem on a mixed reef tank for several years with no skimmer and had great results. All the sps flourished as well. I did a 5-10% water change every week sometimes every other and had no problems with algea or phosphates. Had to break the system down when renovating the house. I have just set the system back up and it is doing great. I have the normal cycle issues but otherwise very good. I have found that last time and this time once the cycle was through my nitrates were 0. So I did not find that the Mudd leached into the water. This time I went with pukani rock instead of live rock and heard a lot about phosphate being a problem. After 3 months including the cycle I have 0 on my po4. A regular refugium might show the same results but I've been very impressed IME.
 
As with most things in this hobby, all you're going to get are anecdotal tales that have little bearing on whether or not it's really a better method. People who have tried it and either liked or didn't like it.

To really know if it's better, someone independent of the folk that benefit from sales of the stuff would have to setup several otherwise identical systems and compare over a period of time.

My (probably not very useful) opinion: It's effect should be roughly the same as a DSB using fine sand, except that it costs significantly more and contains a substantially higher proportion of quartz sand which has sharp edges, and will thus prevent some types of benthic animals from thriving. (In other words: just do a DSB in whatever location you were considering using MM. :) )
 
Elegance Coral,

Please let me know what personal experience you have had with using EcoSystem's methods. I don't personally know you but I do know Steve Tyree, and know of Mike Paletta and Chris Cefola. All three are advocates of the EcoSystem Method. Just wanted to know your own experience level.

Respectfully...

I have never put mud, of any kind, into my reef tank. I've never stepped out in front of a moving truck either, but I'm pretty sure it would heart. Some things you don't need to experience for yourself to know what the outcome will be.

My personal experience, about 40 years studying nature in general, and about 25 studying this hobby.

When ever people ask questions like this, they always get responses Like, "I used mud and my tank did great", and "I used mud and my tank did poorly". Which is what you got in this thread. Unfortunately, this doesn't tell you anything about how the mud effects a system. None of these responses can make a connection between the mud and what happened in their tank. Either pro or con. If I float a rubber ducky in a beautiful tank, does it show that rubber duckies work miracles in reef tanks? Absolutely not, because I can't make the connection between the rubber ducky and the health of the system. If you put mud in a tank, and the tank does well, it does not show that the mud had anything to do with it. By the same token, if the tank does poorly, we can't prove that the mud is to blame, based solely on the fact that it's in the tank.

If we want to know how something like, mud from the bottom of the ocean, will effect a tiny glass box with delicate reef creatures in it, we simply need to look at science and our understanding of nature for the answers. We know that tropical coral reefs, at least the healthy growing ones, are found in very clean/nutrient poor environments. This tells us that the animals living there have evolved to prosper under these conditions. Knowing this, it becomes obvious that confining these animals in a tiny glass box with a bunch of rot and decay would be a bad idea.

That whole "circle of life" thing, they sang about in The Lion King, it's for real. Rot and decay is a big part of that circle of life. It is the process that makes nutrients like nitrate and phosphate available to fertilize plant growth. In forests, leaves, branches, animal waste, dead animals and plant, all fall to the ground and rot. When this material rots, it releases phosphate and nitrate the causes more plant growth. The same thing happens on the planes of Africa, and the bottom of our oceans. Animals and plants in the water die and fall to the bottom. Their waste falls to the bottom. When it accumulates on the bottom, it rots and releases nutrients like nitrate and phosphate. These nutrients are then pushed back to the surface where it fertilizes algae growth. The exact same thing will happen when you remove this rot and decay from the bottom of the ocean and place it in a glass box in our living rooms. It will rot, and release nutrients like nitrate and phosphate. There's no way around this fact. It is a process that takes place all over this planet, and it's not going to change because some company wants to make some money.



We can do bad things to our systems, and still make them successful. We simply need to take positive steps to offset those negative ones.

We can take a bunch of rot and decay from the bottom of the ocean and place it into a tank where we are trying to keep delicate animals, that evolved in very clean environments, and make it "work". We just need to take steps to offset the negative effects of the rot and decay. Things like larger/more frequent water changes, better filtration, more maintenance, lower bioload, less feeding............... will all help to offset the negative effects of a pile of rot and decay on the bottom of the tank. The question is, "Why would we want to go through all this, and put our pets at risk in the process?"
 
I sent an email to Leng at ecosystem with the above thread asking for a technical rebuttal and this was what I got back. It was nice to get the quick response but I was disappointed in the substance. What probably is doing the most good in these units is that they are a refugium and as stated above therefore counteract any negative issues with the Mudd. Although we are still learning that many coals do better in fact with parameters that are not stripped entirely. I agree that more research is necessary to really know and that the science is still evolving. Here is the email I received

Hi Ted

The author is entitle to his opinion. *He is right (in theory) if he base everything from what he see in his own tank (ie. deep sand bed, etc...). *But ocean is very large that there are places that those things the author is talking about would not settle. *I am a skeptic (very skeptic actually) myself but I am doing my homework to find out. *If I am not doing that then I would be an ignorance individual. *Please follow what I am doing currently by going to YouTube lengksy channel. *Happy Holidays.
Thanks
Leng
 
What probably is doing the most good in these units is that they are a refugium and as stated above therefore counteract any negative issues with the Mudd.

It wouldn't work this way. The refugium and the display are one body of water. If you put red food coloring in the refugium, it would only take a few moments for the water in the display to begin turning red as well. If you have organic matter rotting in the refugium and releasing nitrate and phosphate, it will reach the display as well. If you took a sample of water from the refugium and one from the display, then tested them for nitrate and phosphate, the results would be the same.


Although we are still learning that many coals do better in fact with parameters that are not stripped entirely. I agree that more research is necessary to really know and that the science is still evolving.

This part of my response in my opinion, based on my experience.
I agree that the different animals we keep seem to prosper with different nutrient levels. We typically don't have a problem providing enough nutrients for our pets though. The common problem is keeping nutrients low enough. Just check the Reef Discussion form, and count the number of threads involving algae problems, and this becomes obvious. If, in some rare situation, the nutrient level was to drop to low, it's an easy problem to solve. Simply feed a little more. I see no need for a product like this unless we were attempting to create a seagrass, algae, or mangrove display.




Hi Ted

The author is entitle to his opinion.

Until this post, I haven't stated my opinion. The statements I've made prior to this post are known fact. It's simply the way nature works.



*He is right (in theory) if he base everything from what he see in his own tank (ie. deep sand bed, etc...).

There's no theory to what I've said, and I never said anything about what I've seen in my tank, or any tank. My statements simply describe how nature works.


*But ocean is very large that there are places that those things the author is talking about would not settle.

I agree that there are places in the ocean where very little settles. These are typically areas of rapid water movement that would wash away small particles before they can settle. These environments typically leave a solid rock bottom, or a bottom with larger heavy pebbles or stones, not mud. For mud to form on the bottom, you need relatively slow moving water, or the tiny particles of mud would simply get washed away. According to their site, this mud is collected deep under the ocean. All of the organisms in this deep column of water produce waste and die. With the water movement to slow to wash away these small particles, there's nothing to stop them from settling on the bottom. He can't have it both ways. He can't say he collects mud from deep under the ocean, but organic matter doesn't settle in it.


*Please follow what I am doing currently by going to YouTube lengksy channel. *Happy Holidays.
Thanks
Leng

There's a reason companies use independent research, or double blind testing. When a business sets up a demonstration, like Leng has done in his videos, it can only be viewed as meaningless. He has a vested interest in the tank containing his product to be best. If the tank containing his product did worse than the others, would he post a video of it on YouTube? He'd be foolish if he did. He is the one in control of this little demonstration. He can manipulate the tanks to create what ever outcome he wants. He's not done with his little demonstration, but my money says it will turn out exactly as he wants it to. Which will prove absolutely nothing.
 
Few years back I was able to see Leng's tanks and they were amazing. I never tried his MM because it is so counter intuitive to what we have been doing for so many years.
 
Quote: Elegance Coral
"It wouldn't work this way. The refugium and the display are one body of water. If you put red food coloring in the refugium, it would only take a few moments for the water in the display to begin turning red as well. If you have organic matter rotting in the refugium and releasing nitrate and phosphate, it will reach the display as well. If you took a sample of water from the refugium and one from the display, then tested them for nitrate and phosphate, the results would be the same."

Agreed obviously the levels in the refuge and DT would be the same but these systems are running IME with low to 0 phosphates & Nitrates.So I was stating that the refugium is doing the work here to take out the nutrients that would leach into the system that are in the Mudd. These levels must not be very high or we would see threads stating that these systems run high levels of both and cause algea problems and would not continue to sell. This does not seem to be the case. I agree that does not mean that the levels are not there in the Mudd in the first place but only that they must be at a low enough concentration that the refugium keeps up with these and the rest of the tank as well. IF the Mudd is full of decay I wonder why we do not see huge problems in these systems? Any thoughts? Also I agree that the information given is so one sided its border line insulting on his you tube.
 
GreshamH,
why would they need a formula if its dried ocean dirt? yes maybe now they would actually used Real ocean mud, but would why anyone trust a company this. kind of reminds of purpleup
 
That study is over 5 years old. Companies typically change formulas once a test like that has been done.... just like ASW companies have done after the ASW studies had been conducted.

Saying that, I'm not a MM user but it probably has its place in other people's tanks

I don't disagree about it being usable, it's just that this product is obviously not what it's made up to be by the company.

Now if they said, "Hey we got this great mud that works great for your tank, helping to lower the nutrients and what not."

Then i'd say alrighty then! give it a test, if it works that's just great.

Problem here is they are selling a Phoney product wich would be a lot cheaper if they sold it for what it was, regular mudd (take this with a grain of salt as I don't know exactly how mudd is made up) But as an example.

I wouldn't buy that product, however if they changed their ways and became honest about their products i'd probably at the very least give it some thought.
 
When ever people ask questions like this, they always get responses Like, "I used mud and my tank did great", and "I used mud and my tank did poorly". Which is what you got in this thread. Unfortunately, this doesn't tell you anything about how the mud effects a system. None of these responses can make a connection between the mud and what happened in their tank. Either pro or con. If I float a rubber ducky in a beautiful tank, does it show that rubber duckies work miracles in reef tanks? Absolutely not, because I can't make the connection between the rubber ducky and the health of the system.

A page of gospel!


We know that tropical coral reefs, at least the healthy growing ones, are found in very clean/nutrient poor environments. This tells us that the animals living there have evolved to prosper under these conditions. Knowing this, it becomes obvious that confining these animals in a tiny glass box with a bunch of rot and decay would be a bad idea.

I do not agree.
The reefs are nutrient poor if we look just at dissolved nutrients, but if we measure organic matter suspended as particulate and plankton... there's a huge amount of nutrients around corals, always refreshed and renewed by water current.

Take account of that when you make comparisons between nature and aquaria.

I personally do not love mud, but in my tank I try to simulate an ecosystem using cryptic zone and a large DSB.
I think the key for success is to increase the type and the number of mouths to be fed and mud does help with this...
 
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