EcoTech Marine Introduces the Radion XR30w LED Light

But why were 420nm LEDs not used from the VERY beginning? I don't care if Ecotech won't say anything about future developments but they should be able to answer a very simple question.


The whole 420nm LED issue isn't isolated to just Ecotech though. I have mentioned the issue about 99% of the LED fixtures on the market. Why is such a vital spectrum missed with them all?

Again, either they are too expensive (doubtful) or proper R&D isn't being done. I have no doubt that Ecotech will release new LED clusters in the future that will provide a little better spectrum but at what cost? $100 per cluster? So now your $750 light costs you almost $1,000? What do you do with the old clusters? Selling them will be hard when everyone is saying you need the new clusters to have a true full spectrum.

I am not bashing Ecotech for one second. I have tried numerous ways to acquire a Radion but I am not dropping $750 on a light. Can I afford to? Sure, if I want to tick off my wife and live through that mess (no thanks).

I just think we as consumers need to hold these companies accountable. No one has held AI accountable and they continue to build fixtures that seriously lack what is needed IMO.

I don't know the reason for the lack of 420nm either but it probably has something to do with it being on the periphery of what we as humans, the ones actually buying the product, can see so it makes for less overall brightness in the tank which is something LED's already seem to be at a disadvantage as compared to other forms of reef lighting like MH's or CFL's. Also people love to use PAR meters as a metric to compare the output and with the most commonly used PAR meters out there under-reporting the PAR values from blue LED as it is already adding even bluer ones will probably drop the numbers a fair amount more as well. Sure they could add more overall but then the power budget goes up and a bigger driver and fixture will result and the price is only going to get more expensive, something you and others already seem to balk at which is entirely your prerogative.

The bottom line is they have to sell the product to be able to make it better in the future so they probably went with a final configuration which covered as many bases as possible i.e. looks good to the eye, can grow most things, is of reasonable enough price compared to the competition to sell well etc. As LED's improve they tend to get more efficient, some just get more efficient at a given monetary cost but some get more efficient at a given power budget too, so it is entirely possible new LED "packages" could become available that have more spectrums and increases luminance and PAR all while using the same 130 or so Watts.

ETA: just curious why if you think the $750 is out of order why you would care enough to post about the Radion to begin with? If you think they are overpriced and don't deliver what you consider a critical part of the spectrum why would you even try to acquire them to begin with?
 
Yeah i been with this post from the start , and thay been saying 2 fixtures for a 120.

I sure you have. But the two main things that Ecotech has recommended for sizing is volume and size of the tank.

Ex: halide
"¢ Generally, one Radion fixture should be used per 40 gallons (150L) of water volume
"¢ Approximate surface coverage is 24x24 inches (60x60cm)

Base on their recommendation for a 120 gal (42x24x24)
1. 40 gal x3 fixtures =120gal sizing. So 3 max.
2. 24" x 2 fixtures= 48" sizing. So 2 min.

2 may work. But why short change yourself? They are dimmable right? Now I understand 3 is not do able for the OP. So, no need to not suggest again how many they actually without looking at their recommendation.
 
I don't know the reason for the lack of 420nm either but it probably has something to do with it being on the periphery of what we as humans, the ones actually buying the product, can see so it makes for less overall brightness in the tank which is something LED's already seem to be at a disadvantage as compared to other forms of reef lighting like MH's or CFL's. Also people love to use PAR meters as a metric to compare the output and with the most commonly used PAR meters out there under-reporting the PAR values from blue LED as it is already adding even bluer ones will probably drop the numbers a fair amount more as well. Sure they could add more overall but then the power budget goes up and a bigger driver and fixture will result and the price is only going to get more expensive, something you and others already seem to balk at which is entirely your prerogative.

The bottom line is they have to sell the product to be able to make it better in the future so they probably went with a final configuration which covered as many bases as possible i.e. looks good to the eye, can grow most things, is of reasonable enough price compared to the competition to sell well etc. As LED's improve they tend to get more efficient, some just get more efficient at a given monetary cost but some get more efficient at a given power budget too, so it is entirely possible new LED "packages" could become available that have more spectrums and increases luminance and PAR all while using the same 130 or so Watts.

ETA: just curious why if you think the $750 is out of order why you would care enough to post about the Radion to begin with? If you think they are overpriced and don't deliver what you consider a critical part of the spectrum why would you even try to acquire them to begin with?


First off, Ecotech has an extra channel to already use so the driver won't get any bigger. Will they use more power with more LEDs? Yes, they will but they can pull a couple of the blue LEDs to compensate for this. Why use Royal Blue and Blue? They have almost identical spectral graphs with each LED just barely peaking at a different wavelength. Pull 1-2 of each and the 420nm LED will fill in the gap.

You are right that 420nm light isn't that bright to the human eye but that hasn't stopped people using actinic bulbs for decades, has it? Just because humans can't see violet light all that well doesn't mean that corals can't see it. In the end we are keeping CORALS and not humans in our tanks. So what if WE can't see it all that well. If the corals can and it is an important spectrum for them, we should provide it.

Why would I post about the Radion? I think $300k is out of line for a Ferrari too, but that doesn't stop me from having an OPINION about the car. Why would I try to acquire a Radion? It is super easy to slap on (2) 403nm UV Stunners from Ecoxotic and cover the lower part of the spectrum. Will I see the difference? Nope, I won't. The 403nm stunners are dim to our eyes like we already pointed out but the corals will see it.

Actually, even though the violet wavelengths are dim to our eye they provide pretty good PAR. You just have to use the proper meter to read them. I will try to dig up the link of a company that tested the PAR on some UV LEDs and the numbers were pretty good actually. Just because Apogee PAR meters have a serious disadvantage at reading lower wavelengths doesn't mean we should just say "F" it and not provide what is NEEDED for corals.

How do we know that the Cholophyll A spike at 417nm and the Violaxanthin spike at 425nm isn't responsible for certain colors? I have never once seen a study where we, as humans, actually knew where all the different colors come from and how to get those colors out of our corals.

Yes, I understand that the blue LEDs slightly touch on the 420nm area but it is a VERY small amount and nothing goes below that. All I am saying is adding a couple 420nm LEDs isn't going to hurt anything and if done right, shouldn't cost too much more either. If you are going to spend $750 on a light, you will spend the $775 if they bump it up. If you are going to tout being a FULL spectrum light, provide light within that FULL spectrum. T5s and MH can say they are FULL spectrum because they have light all throughout the 400-700nm range and even have UV and IR light. We use shields to filter out the UV and that is a good thing so we don't need LEDs that provide actual UV. Infared light is not used by corals either (to my knowledge) and is mostly used to heat the water. Therefore, we don't need any IR LEDs either.

Again, I am NOT bashing Ecotech. If Ecotech or anyone else wants to think I am, I am truly sorry you feel that way. I have never once said the Radion sucked, or that it is a $750 "softies" light. I don't even care if the PAR is lower than the competition because I understand that PAR is really pointless in the end. PAR is a good baseline but nothing more. It isn't a holy grail or magic formula for success.

The Radion was a giant leap for us here in America. We were stuck with AI, Marineland and Chinese LEDs for a long time. The Radion changed the game and I still think it is a great fixture but there are areas for improvement IN MY OPINION. I hope that Ecotech (and others) can see it that way. Other LED companies already allow the option for 400-420nm LEDs and so should "America's Premier LED Aquarium System."

That is all.
 
First off, Ecotech has an extra channel to already use so the driver won't get any bigger.

I don't have the driver in front of me but I think its rated output on the label is something like 36V @ 4.2A, I don't have it in front of me so that might be off, which is roughly 150W so if the current output is ~130W they don't have much to play with when you consider they have a fan, wireless radio and cpu onboard to deal with. Maybe they could squeeze a little more power out for LED's but not a lot IMHO w/o upping the driver specs.

You are right that 420nm light isn't that bright to the human eye but that hasn't stopped people using actinic bulbs for decades, has it? Just because humans can't see violet light all that well doesn't mean that corals can't see it. In the end we are keeping CORALS and not humans in our tanks. So what if WE can't see it all that well. If the corals can and it is an important spectrum for them, we should provide it.

I don't disagree with most of that but they are a business and you have to sell to the consumer. There are lots of people who already complain LED's in general are too dim for their tastes regardless of the impact on coral health. You have to make the customer's eyes happy or they won't like them no matter how good they are for the livestock. If there was an imaginary light that grew coral at insane rates but was invisible to the human eye how many people would buy them if you can't enjoy looking at them?

Why would I post about the Radion? I think $300k is out of line for a Ferrari too, but that doesn't stop me from having an OPINION about the car. Why would I try to acquire a Radion? It is super easy to slap on (2) 403nm UV Stunners from Ecoxotic and cover the lower part of the spectrum. Will I see the difference? Nope, I won't. The 403nm stunners are dim to our eyes like we already pointed out but the corals will see it.

Fair enough but they I assume you post on Ferrari boards that they are too expensive as well? My point was just that if you think something is too expensive right off the bat why bother with it at all?

Actually, even though the violet wavelengths are dim to our eye they provide pretty good PAR. You just have to use the proper meter to read them. I will try to dig up the link of a company that tested the PAR on some UV LEDs and the numbers were pretty good actually. Just because Apogee PAR meters have a serious disadvantage at reading lower wavelengths doesn't mean we should just say "F" it and not provide what is NEEDED for corals.

That's all fine and good but how many PAR tests have you seen of reef lighting not using an Apogee meter? I've seen maybe 50-60 articles/posts on PAR for reef lighting over the last few years and maybe 2-3 of them didn't use an Apogee. They are about the cheapest one available so it makes sense they are going to be the most commonly used. I'm not saying we shouldn't want other wavelengths at all, just that it becomes a harder sell for manufactures when they "look" dimmer to the buyer and may test more poorly with commonly available test equipment.

How do we know that the Cholophyll A spike at 417nm and the Violaxanthin spike at 425nm isn't responsible for certain colors? I have never once seen a study where we, as humans, actually knew where all the different colors come from and how to get those colors out of our corals.

Yes, I understand that the blue LEDs slightly touch on the 420nm area but it is a VERY small amount and nothing goes below that. All I am saying is adding a couple 420nm LEDs isn't going to hurt anything and if done right, shouldn't cost too much more either. If you are going to spend $750 on a light, you will spend the $775 if they bump it up. If you are going to tout being a FULL spectrum light, provide light within that FULL spectrum. T5s and MH can say they are FULL spectrum because they have light all throughout the 400-700nm range and even have UV and IR light. We use shields to filter out the UV and that is a good thing so we don't need LEDs that provide actual UV. Infared light is not used by corals either (to my knowledge) and is mostly used to heat the water. Therefore, we don't need any IR LEDs either.

Again, I am NOT bashing Ecotech. If Ecotech or anyone else wants to think I am, I am truly sorry you feel that way. I have never once said the Radion sucked, or that it is a $750 "softies" light. I don't even care if the PAR is lower than the competition because I understand that PAR is really pointless in the end. PAR is a good baseline but nothing more. It isn't a holy grail or magic formula for success.

Again I agree with much of that but no product is perfect, especially in this hobby. Ecotech does seem to do a fair amount of work designing nice products albeit not cheap ones but they still have to meet a target cost to sell them where they think they can sustain a profit so compromises have to be made. They are one of the first mainstream LED fixtures to use a bunch of different colors to give the ability to change the color look all under sophisticated computer control so they already weren't going to be cheap. Also you and I may not see PAR as the end all be all but there are many people that do. Heck, do a search here on RC for PAR and see what you get. To ignore the realities of the market is to doom your product to failure. I don't take anything you wrote as an attack at all, I was just curious why you cared if you ruled them out on cost already. There is nothing wrong with criticism anyway. I posted a while back myself a minor gripe that Ecotech put out such a nice sleek fixture but only offered a hanging kit and had nothing for tank mounting. I had to build my own out of an LCD VESA mount to do what I wanted. That doesn't make sense to me.

The Radion was a giant leap for us here in America. We were stuck with AI, Marineland and Chinese LEDs for a long time. The Radion changed the game and I still think it is a great fixture but there are areas for improvement IN MY OPINION. I hope that Ecotech (and others) can see it that way. Other LED companies already allow the option for 400-420nm LEDs and so should "America's Premier LED Aquarium System."

That is all.

Nothing wrong with that. Ecotech made a big point that the lights are modular and upgradeable. They just came out a few months ago. With Ecotech's very long product cycles and history of hardware upgrades during those long cycles available to legacy hardware owners it would seem very likely you will see things that address your criticisms, well maybe not on cost though ;) Again I didn't really see you attacking Ecotech without basis, just wondering why you cared if you don't have a dog in this fight. Also I hope you didn't see my post as an attack on you. I just think you look at the technical side a little too much and lose sight that there are market forces at work that force compromises. I want a nice light but I also don't want to be the only one who has it and a company that produced it out of business either ;) This hobby is littered with companies that come and go so sometimes you have to live with compromises with ones hat are around for the long haul.
 
I was thinking about getting these lights, however, I need to place a glass cover over the tank(otherwise my cats will go fishing), will this affect the lighting to my corals?
 
You will lose some transmission through the glass, more as it gets dirty or fogs up. You can just run them brighter to compensate or you can get some of that clear mesh people mount in screen window trim to make mesh covers that keep the fish in and cats out.
 
is there a thread somewhere that people post the light cycle to share?
I have been running jonathans graph and it looks great but i want to see what others are having success with.
also is it possible to have a diff light schedule for the weekends? would like to have a later start and end time for just sat & sun but dont want to have to re preogram every friday night then again on sunday nights

bump...?
 
running 2x Radion 85% natural mode at 10 inch above water .

Running Zeovit

91fd7ad9.jpg
 
Just wanted to post a few pics of growth differences since switching from AI's to Radions. I had my AI's for almost a year and didn't see the kind of growth I saw after a month with the Radions...

Bad pic, but red planet is getting red again!
16a38y0.jpg


New growth since Radions
24wc7mc.jpg


All the yellow growth is brand new since the Radions
236xe0.jpg


Great growth and encrusting
213cz.jpg

2udyul0.jpg


Purple growth is brand new since Radions
s623wo.jpg


359zo7n.jpg
 
I agree, you have a very nice tank Medred! looking forward to seeing a new video from you on youtube.

Sent from Wesley's Moto Atrix 4G using Tapatalk
 
Repost:
Sorry I should have been specific. I made a setting where I run both blues at 50%, green at 10% and red at 40% and everything looks awesome! I use that before I run 14k throughout the day and after. If I want to get to that saved setting at another time mid day without plugging it into the computer to show how it looks how would I do that? I hit cycle as many times as I can in both natural and artificial modes, but it does not ever bring up that saved setting.

is there a thread somewhere that people post the light cycle to share?
I have been running jonathans graph and it looks great but i want to see what others are having success with.
also is it possible to have a diff light schedule for the weekends? would like to have a later start and end time for just sat & sun but dont want to have to re preogram every friday night then again on sunday nights

+1 what they said..
 
Just wanted to post a few pics of growth differences since switching from AI's to Radions. I had my AI's for almost a year and didn't see the kind of growth I saw after a month with the Radions...

Bad pic, but red planet is getting red again!
16a38y0.jpg


New growth since Radions
24wc7mc.jpg


All the yellow growth is brand new since the Radions
236xe0.jpg


Great growth and encrusting
213cz.jpg

2udyul0.jpg


Purple growth is brand new since Radions
s623wo.jpg


359zo7n.jpg

growth looks great.... How high is your over all intensity? How many hours is peak time?
 
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