Eibli x Lemonpeel
- Thread starter tcmfish
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The colors are a little off, because of the lighting.
The colors are a little off, because of the lighting.
Luiz Rocha
Salty Dog
Please, please, remember me if are succesful and any of the little ones die... I need those hybrids! I will try to breed them myself in the lab too (and also vrolikii).
Luiz Rocha
Salty Dog
Hey Tim, very interesting observation.
The latest explanation for the reason of the Acanthurus pyroferus mimicry is that, by looking like pigmy angels, the surgeons gain access to damselfish territories. In other words, the damselfish "think" the mimic surgeons are not voracious herbivores like other surgeons and allow them inside their territories, where they gain access to better quality algae. The question is not settled, and I am planning to run some additional experiments to confirm this.
About the cleaning itself, it is common for some juvenile angelfish be cleaners, how big is the lemonpeel? Anyways, I think it is a good sign if there is no aggression.
The latest explanation for the reason of the Acanthurus pyroferus mimicry is that, by looking like pigmy angels, the surgeons gain access to damselfish territories. In other words, the damselfish "think" the mimic surgeons are not voracious herbivores like other surgeons and allow them inside their territories, where they gain access to better quality algae. The question is not settled, and I am planning to run some additional experiments to confirm this.
About the cleaning itself, it is common for some juvenile angelfish be cleaners, how big is the lemonpeel? Anyways, I think it is a good sign if there is no aggression.
The fish is a good 2 inches. The juvenile angels I know that clean aren't Centropyge but are the larger angelfishes.
As far as that explanation I don't know the experiments or their significance, but angels are herbivores too and I would expect a damsel would defend against them too.
As far as that explanation I don't know the experiments or their significance, but angels are herbivores too and I would expect a damsel would defend against them too.
Luiz Rocha
Salty Dog
I've seen a few species cleaning in the wild, including flavissimus, but you are right, the larger angels clean a lot more. You got any videos of the cleaning? How often does he do it?
Yep, that's the exact reason why I don't think their explanation holds too well, and I am trying to get some more experiments done.
copps
Premium Member
Luiz, Jack (Randall) concluded from his extensive studies on this that the reason for the mimicry is that predatory fishes stay away from Centropyge because of how evasive they are, hugging the rocks, hiding often... being tough little buggers to get... he had many other theories that he shot down with experiments... while I think he told me he did these experiments before I was even born, we spoke about it recently and he still believes that holds true... of all the things he could have put on the cover of his GIANT South Pacific Reef Fishes Book (I think it weighs more than my four year old son), he chose an adult and juvenile Acanthurus pyroferus alongside a Centropyge flavissima!
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Luiz Rocha
Salty Dog
Awesome videos, I think they are bonding
Hi John, I heard that explanation from Jack too (and read it in one of his papers). The reason I don't like it is because given a chance any predator eats either the Centropyge model or the A. pyroferus mimic. Don't shoot me for this, but both Jack and I, in the interest of science, sacrificed some Centropyge and A. pyroferus, and in both our experiments the predators readily ate both species.
So, say Centropyge are, like Jack says, avoided by predators because they are evasive. So, if those same predators see a sick (or slow swimming) Centropyge, would you think they would eat it? I think so, and that's why I don't believe in this particular explanation. Think of it in terms of African predators (and you will come to realize that I love African predator metaphors ): Lions don't actively hunt gazelles, they are too fast for them, but if there is a sick one (or young one, or a particularly slow one) they will bring it down and readily consume it. So, do you think that if there was another animal that looked exactly like a gazelle but was a lot slower would they avoid it? No, I think they would spot it from a mile away and go for it.
It is the same thing in this case, the A. pyroferus behave differently, they are not as evasive as the Centropyge are, and I think any predator would just see them as "slow" Centropyge and take them out given the chance.
Luiz, Jack (Randall) concluded from his extensive studies on this that the reason for the mimicry is that predatory fishes stay away from Centropyge because of how evasive they are, hugging the rocks, hiding often... being tough little buggers to get... he had many other theories that he shot down with experiments... while I think he told me he did these experiments before I was even born, we spoke about it recently and he still believes that holds true... of all the things he could have put on the cover of his GIANT South Pacific Reef Fishes Book (I think it weighs more than my four year old son), he chose an adult and juvenile Acanthurus pyroferus alongside a Centropyge flavissima!
Hi John, I heard that explanation from Jack too (and read it in one of his papers). The reason I don't like it is because given a chance any predator eats either the Centropyge model or the A. pyroferus mimic. Don't shoot me for this, but both Jack and I, in the interest of science, sacrificed some Centropyge and A. pyroferus, and in both our experiments the predators readily ate both species.
So, say Centropyge are, like Jack says, avoided by predators because they are evasive. So, if those same predators see a sick (or slow swimming) Centropyge, would you think they would eat it? I think so, and that's why I don't believe in this particular explanation. Think of it in terms of African predators (and you will come to realize that I love African predator metaphors
): Lions don't actively hunt gazelles, they are too fast for them, but if there is a sick one (or young one, or a particularly slow one) they will bring it down and readily consume it. So, do you think that if there was another animal that looked exactly like a gazelle but was a lot slower would they avoid it? No, I think they would spot it from a mile away and go for it. It is the same thing in this case, the A. pyroferus behave differently, they are not as evasive as the Centropyge are, and I think any predator would just see them as "slow" Centropyge and take them out given the chance.
Luiz Rocha
Salty Dog
Oh, by the way, the study I mentioned had some convincing evidence, the mimic A. pyroferus had 30% more algae in their stomach than an other comparable size Acanthurus in the area and were a lot less chased by damsels than any Acanthurus. But they did the study in only one location, and only with the C. vrolicki mimic. Now, C. vrolicki is much more of an spongivore, whereas C. flavissimus is much more of a herbivore and has a lot of aggressive interactions with damsels, that's where my questions come from.
Oh, and sorry about the thread hijack
Oh, and sorry about the thread hijack
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