One of the cheapest easiest things you can do is get your hot water heater on a timer. I only run mine for 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours at night. I never run out of hot water and it cut my bill by 30$ the first month I installed it. I also put everything I could on a power strip to turn off when not in use. Turned a/c up to 82 during the day and 80 at night with ceiling fans to help keep things cool. Total difference $280 last july, this july $130. And according to the power company this years outside air temp was 2 degrees hotter on average than last year.
Electrical Costs Killing Me!!!
- Thread starter mrpet
- Start date
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Again, you can not just turn some stuff off and compare one months bill to another... There are simply way too many variables. Sure turning off very large usage appliances will show a difference, but to say that "I turned off some power strips and my hot water heater and save $280" is simply not supported by the reality.
80 for A/C ... why bother. An attic fan would keep the house cooler and be very efficient.
I hate to break it to you, but modern water heaters do not leak much heat. Adding a $15 insulation blanket will rarely ever pay for itself. An ELECTRIC hot water heater wastes VERY LITTLE energy (there is no flue that allows hot gas to escape and/or cold air to contact that tank and convect the heat away. Cutting the power to a modern hot water heater for 20 of the 24 hours AND NOT using any water in the interim will yield a savings of 10% at best... about 5% if you use water (introduce cold water) from the idle tank. If you saved $30 a month with your timer, that would mean that your water heating bill alone would be in the $300-$600 range! Not a chance unless your heating it on the electric stove.
I am not trying to beat anybody up here, but these are the kind of misconceptions that, left unchecked, fuel urban legend and shuffle people towards agreeing with any "green" or "environmental" or "money saving" law, policy or plan that sounds good, no matter what the facts are.
Also note:
It takes a lot of energy to HEAT the water, very little to keep it hot. Turning off the heater and allowing the water to cool only means it has to be heated again when you want to use it. A BTU is BTU. So turning off the water heater only saves what the water heater leaks to the home in terms of heat. In the winter, that HEAT leaked to the home adds heat to the home... and guess what does not have to work as hard?
Last edited:
carlso63
Reefkeeping since 1977
If I were in the OPs position, here is what I would do:
1) Ditch the CLs and go with the new Korallia Magnums. The biggest one flows 3,250gph at something like 20 watts! 5 of those would net over 16,000 gph for half the wattage of just ONE of his current CL pumps! A "no brainer"!
2) I believe he said his tank is "in wall" with the actual tank being in his garage - and it gets to 90F in there some days. Ditch the chiller and consider adding a window A/C unit in the garage - it takes less energy to cool down air vs. cooling down water, so let the A/C get the garage air temp down to say, 75F and the water will cool down to a more reasonable temp without the energy hogging chiller
3) Don't recall what his lighting setup was, but I'd bet he's running halides with some kind of supplementation. Cut the halides to 8 hrs and run the supplements only 2 hrs before the halides and 2 -3 hours after - not concurrently. I'd bet his tank would run a little cooler, his electric use would drop a bit also - and his corals will never know the difference
4) Bean's criticism aside, I have to say that in my own 3700 sq. ft. home I decided to replace every single 60w incandescent light bulb w/ a 16w CF at the same time I set up my 225, in an attempt to try to "offset" some of the anticipated electrical costs of running the Reef... I ended up replacing a total of 56 bulbs (counting closets, ceiling fans, outdoor lights, etc)... I bought the CFs in bulk so I only paid $100 for 60 of them... compared this years elec bill vs. same months last year w/o the Reef:
May difference 2008 vs. 2007 = $40 more
June " " " = $51 more
July " " " = $46 more
Aug " " " = $52 more
Or an avg difference of ONLY around $47 a month more in electrical costs due to the tank. Now, your setup is roughly twice the size of mine, but, still - I'd bet you'd save a noticeable amount of money on the bill. Other thing I've noticed is the CFs don't give off nearly as much heat as the incs did - that probably means my central A/C works a little less harder than it used to when the lights are on...
5) Speaking of A/C, running @ 72F 24 / 7 is crazy! Just how hot is it in your part of CA? Here in UT it regularly hits 100 degrees pretty much every day from June 15 - August 15 - and I don't have the A/C set lower than 73F and actually it is several degrees higher most of the time with the programmable thermostats... Don't you have programmable thermostats? I'd raise the lowest daytime temp to 73F and raise it to 80 when you are not home (like work hours), 75 an hour before you get home, 74 for the last hour before you go to bed and through the night maybe up to 75 by the early morning hours... I also strongly recommend ceiling fans. I installed about a dozen of them in my home, including 1 in every bedroom. Put that on the "low" speed at night and you should be able to run your A/C at 75 maybe 76 and the bedroom will feel the same to you as 72 w/o a fan...
Hope this helps
1) Ditch the CLs and go with the new Korallia Magnums. The biggest one flows 3,250gph at something like 20 watts! 5 of those would net over 16,000 gph for half the wattage of just ONE of his current CL pumps! A "no brainer"!
2) I believe he said his tank is "in wall" with the actual tank being in his garage - and it gets to 90F in there some days. Ditch the chiller and consider adding a window A/C unit in the garage - it takes less energy to cool down air vs. cooling down water, so let the A/C get the garage air temp down to say, 75F and the water will cool down to a more reasonable temp without the energy hogging chiller
3) Don't recall what his lighting setup was, but I'd bet he's running halides with some kind of supplementation. Cut the halides to 8 hrs and run the supplements only 2 hrs before the halides and 2 -3 hours after - not concurrently. I'd bet his tank would run a little cooler, his electric use would drop a bit also - and his corals will never know the difference
4) Bean's criticism aside, I have to say that in my own 3700 sq. ft. home I decided to replace every single 60w incandescent light bulb w/ a 16w CF at the same time I set up my 225, in an attempt to try to "offset" some of the anticipated electrical costs of running the Reef... I ended up replacing a total of 56 bulbs (counting closets, ceiling fans, outdoor lights, etc)... I bought the CFs in bulk so I only paid $100 for 60 of them... compared this years elec bill vs. same months last year w/o the Reef:
May difference 2008 vs. 2007 = $40 more
June " " " = $51 more
July " " " = $46 more
Aug " " " = $52 more
Or an avg difference of ONLY around $47 a month more in electrical costs due to the tank. Now, your setup is roughly twice the size of mine, but, still - I'd bet you'd save a noticeable amount of money on the bill. Other thing I've noticed is the CFs don't give off nearly as much heat as the incs did - that probably means my central A/C works a little less harder than it used to when the lights are on...
5) Speaking of A/C, running @ 72F 24 / 7 is crazy! Just how hot is it in your part of CA? Here in UT it regularly hits 100 degrees pretty much every day from June 15 - August 15 - and I don't have the A/C set lower than 73F and actually it is several degrees higher most of the time with the programmable thermostats... Don't you have programmable thermostats? I'd raise the lowest daytime temp to 73F and raise it to 80 when you are not home (like work hours), 75 an hour before you get home, 74 for the last hour before you go to bed and through the night maybe up to 75 by the early morning hours... I also strongly recommend ceiling fans. I installed about a dozen of them in my home, including 1 in every bedroom. Put that on the "low" speed at night and you should be able to run your A/C at 75 maybe 76 and the bedroom will feel the same to you as 72 w/o a fan...
Hope this helps
buzzard one
New member
800.00 a month is one heck of a bill for a home your size. You might want to have a hvac tech check out your ac system. Most times when a air conditioner is about to go out it will start pulling alot more amperage a few months before it finally goes out. I have a 3000sqft home with a 380.00 bill this time of year and I live in central Florida. My bill did go up about 80.00 after I set my tank up. You might also want to look into a solar hot water heater. I installed one on my home and eliminated my hotwater electric consumption. Also check the insulation in your attic. You should have at least 18"- 22" of fiberglass insulation for a r45. Also check to see if you have proper ventilation in your attic.
75% of heat comes from your attic through your ceiling. Also check to see if you don't have a leak in your ac duct lines.
Hope this helps.
75% of heat comes from your attic through your ceiling. Also check to see if you don't have a leak in your ac duct lines.
Hope this helps.
mrpet
Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13195954#post13195954 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlso63
If I were in the OPs position, here is what I would do:
1) Ditch the CLs and go with the new Korallia Magnums. The biggest one flows 3,250gph at something like 20 watts! 5 of those would net over 16,000 gph for half the wattage of just ONE of his current CL pumps! A "no brainer"!
2) I believe he said his tank is "in wall" with the actual tank being in his garage - and it gets to 90F in there some days. Ditch the chiller and consider adding a window A/C unit in the garage - it takes less energy to cool down air vs. cooling down water, so let the A/C get the garage air temp down to say, 75F and the water will cool down to a more reasonable temp without the energy hogging chiller
3) Don't recall what his lighting setup was, but I'd bet he's running halides with some kind of supplementation. Cut the halides to 8 hrs and run the supplements only 2 hrs before the halides and 2 -3 hours after - not concurrently. I'd bet his tank would run a little cooler, his electric use would drop a bit also - and his corals will never know the difference
4) Bean's criticism aside, I have to say that in my own 3700 sq. ft. home I decided to replace every single 60w incandescent light bulb w/ a 16w CF at the same time I set up my 225, in an attempt to try to "offset" some of the anticipated electrical costs of running the Reef... I ended up replacing a total of 56 bulbs (counting closets, ceiling fans, outdoor lights, etc)... I bought the CFs in bulk so I only paid $100 for 60 of them... compared this years elec bill vs. same months last year w/o the Reef:
May difference 2008 vs. 2007 = $40 more
June " " " = $51 more
July " " " = $46 more
Aug " " " = $52 more
Or an avg difference of ONLY around $47 a month more in electrical costs due to the tank. Now, your setup is roughly twice the size of mine, but, still - I'd bet you'd save a noticeable amount of money on the bill. Other thing I've noticed is the CFs don't give off nearly as much heat as the incs did - that probably means my central A/C works a little less harder than it used to when the lights are on...
5) Speaking of A/C, running @ 72F 24 / 7 is crazy! Just how hot is it in your part of CA? Here in UT it regularly hits 100 degrees pretty much every day from June 15 - August 15 - and I don't have the A/C set lower than 73F and actually it is several degrees higher most of the time with the programmable thermostats... Don't you have programmable thermostats? I'd raise the lowest daytime temp to 73F and raise it to 80 when you are not home (like work hours), 75 an hour before you get home, 74 for the last hour before you go to bed and through the night maybe up to 75 by the early morning hours... I also strongly recommend ceiling fans. I installed about a dozen of them in my home, including 1 in every bedroom. Put that on the "low" speed at night and you should be able to run your A/C at 75 maybe 76 and the bedroom will feel the same to you as 72 w/o a fan...
Hope this helps
thanks it gets pretty darn hot here high 90s and 100s pretty often i run t5s no halides i have celing fans in every room. may ditch the chiller will need to cut a hole in the garage for an a/c unit no windows. im getting smaller impellers for all the pumps it suppose to reduce the cost by 30% if i have to will ditch the cl for tunzes or korallias thanks for the help
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13195586#post13195586 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fuzznutz
So Bean, are you the anti-green superstar or what?
fuznuts:
I have no problem with "green". I have a problem with the moronic logic used to define what "green" is and what things constitute "being green". I have a problem with shortsighted poeple and policy that do more damage than good being "green". I have a problem with the average uninformed person being used by the "green" movement.
Sorry poo-tang, but that kind of logic burns me up (no personal offense to you).
Step out of your own shoes and look at what you said:
WHY don't YOU get rid of the fish tank? It would be doing YOUR PART. You see other people don't have a fish tank to get rid of and instead they may have to give up something IMPORTANT to do THEIR part.
Heck why don't we ALL take less 3 less showers a week, move the family and kids into a 1 room apartment instead of the 3 bedroom house, only allow the light to be on for 2 hours a night and eat with our hands out of the pots and pans so that we don't have to waste energy cleaning dishes. If we all stopped ironing our clothes (and hell why not just wear them 2-3 times before washing them) and skipped the luxuries like toilet paper soap....
Ohh wait, people already do that in third world countries? Shall we mandate that we ALL live like that? I for one am interested in advancing my standard of living, not working to mimic the 3rd world standard.
I do my part, actually much more than my "fair share" of my part, I get up and work. I earn money and help to support the largest economy in the world that uses a very large portion of my tax money to provide aid to the world. If you (figuratively) or anybody else wants to "do your part" then feel free to do so... just stay away from me
There is no law preventing you or anybody else from paying EXTRA taxes or sending a check to anybody that you feel needs MORE of your wealth. Sending a check will actually be MUCH more efficient than paying it through "green" taxes and fines.
Last edited:
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I never said that you could not save kWh buy purchasing CFL bulbs
Sure you can! Buying them in bulk like you did will also help to ensure that you do see an actual savings in the end.On a personal level:
I don't like the light they produce.
I don't like the turn on delay
On the "green" level:
They do not last much longer than a good incandescent bulb
The overall cradle to grave environmental impact is MUCH larger than the standard incandescent bulbs that it replaces.
The conclusion:
If you want to save some money every month, the CFL bulb is not a bad idea in some cases. If you want to save the planet, then you have been hoodwinked
BTW, I do like the bulbs in rough service areas where incandescent bulb lose their filaments quickly.
mrpet, I am still working on that spreadsheet
Lol, uninformed.
Keep on the CFL's guys, they are much better for everything. Especially the environment. You can get different colours if you don't like the colours of the ones you have. Not sure why it is not dome over there, but our electricity companies gave away free cfl's as part of a pack. In the pack were 6 cfl's and a water saving shower head. It was very popular and my wife managed to get a few packs so we don't have to worry about buying any for the next few years. We even managed to fit out her parents place with the extras.
Everything you can do for the insulation of the house helps. I managed to cut our bill by blocking some of the gaps and I will be re-insulating all the hot water lines under the house on the weekend. I have a cool house now so I end up spending more during winter which I am trying to fix.
Keep on the CFL's guys, they are much better for everything. Especially the environment. You can get different colours if you don't like the colours of the ones you have. Not sure why it is not dome over there, but our electricity companies gave away free cfl's as part of a pack. In the pack were 6 cfl's and a water saving shower head. It was very popular and my wife managed to get a few packs so we don't have to worry about buying any for the next few years. We even managed to fit out her parents place with the extras.
Everything you can do for the insulation of the house helps. I managed to cut our bill by blocking some of the gaps and I will be re-insulating all the hot water lines under the house on the weekend. I have a cool house now so I end up spending more during winter which I am trying to fix.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Why? Because conventional wisdom can't be wrong?
cradle-to-grave, the CFL is staggeringly less resource or environment or consumer friendly. Look at the facts, not the hype.
A) It is comprised of MANY more components than an incandescent bulb. That means more raw materials need to be permitted, mined, transported, processed and fabricated. The actual fabrication process involves many more steps products and energy. Care to extrapolate what EXTRA it costs in terms of the environment and energy to retrieve and use these extra raw materials? The extra energy needed to BUILD the actual bulbs and components?
B)The bulbs must then be shipped to their destinations. They weight MANY TIMES that of a standard incandescent. Care to do the math regarding the shipment? Remember (see below) that many of these bulbs last only marginally longer than an incandescent but weigh several times MORE per unit. Do the math.
On a side note: Most of the fabrication takes place in Asia, but many of the raw materials come from around the world. Care to add up THAT difference or impact? Care to think about the fact that the contries that produce the CFL bulbs are at the BOTTOM of the clean air standards and environmental safety lists? They DON'T have standards to follow, nor care to follow any "global" standards like the rest of us do. Care to add that cost or impact up?
C) Each bulb contains a fair amount of mercury. The lower the mercury content, the less life the bulb has, it is a catch 22. There is simply no way around it. Long life bulbs have a LOT of mercury. Low mercury bulbs live a short life. (the ballast life is another story... see the next point)
D) To keep individual bulb costs down, the bulb components are very cheap. Less mercury is used, ballasts are made to run on the ragged edge of reliable (cheap capacitors in the ballast that dry out quickly). A large portion of the bulbs being sold globally last only marginally longer than the incandescent bulbs they are replacing. This magnifies the environmental impact by magnitudes.
E) CFL bulbs have a Power Factor MUCH LOWER than UNITY. Most consumers do not pay for Power Factor related losses. However, the utility has to generate that LOST power. So you get less light for less money, but they utility has to generate MORE power at THEIR cost. I hate to break it to you but THEIR cost is passed along to YOU. If (and when) everybody MUST use CFL bulbs, the losses on the power grid will be tremendous. Care to think about THAT environmental impact? Then think about that fact that the power company will raise the rates and/or ask for government subsidies and/or switch residential users over to PF compensated meters or plans. EVERY CONSUMER WILL PAY MORE THAN THEY DO NOW FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF POWER THEY USE! Care to add up THAT cost? Remember the power company (private or socialized) is never going to ask for LESS than they need, they will ALWAYS TAKE more than they need. Care to keep adding up the world wide cost to people AND the environment?
F) The bulbs are packaged in PLASTIC blister packs (not cheap paper like incandescent) due to the mercury content. Care to think about the "environmental impact" of the packaging alone?
G) What about the global cleanup costs associated with these bulbs. We have talked about outlawing regular fluorescent tubes for over a decade. We have talked about the mercury nightmare that the world consumption of fluorescent tubes has caused. So the answer is to have consumers take the bulbs to a special collection location? What about the resource cost of that? What about the resource cost of transporting and cleaning and storing the hazardous waste associated with mandated GLOBAL use of these bulbs? Think about it?
H) What about the world governments that are creating entire departments to deal with policy, oversight and disposal of the manufacture, distribution, enforcement and disposal of these hazardous bulbs? Care to add up THAT environmental impact?
The global impact of CFL bulbs is staggering, yet the average person is clueless to the reality, the physics or the science. In any other time, the CFL bulb would be laughed at by the masses, but in this age of global misinformation and redistribution of wealth, it is an easy sell. The whole thing is a boondoggle and the world consumer is turning into the willing dupe, in many (most!) cases doing the advertising for free... scary.
Last edited:
GSMguy
New member
PWND
cradle to the grave is the only way to evaluate a product
Some people need to realize that GREEN is an industry based on profit. People who get nobel peace prizes also sell carbon credits and make millions off of movies about the saving the planet ect.
most companies out there pushing "green" are FOR PROFIT. The saddest thing about it is they are taking advantage of people who are too dumb to realize it and have only the best of intentions..
cradle to the grave is the only way to evaluate a product
Some people need to realize that GREEN is an industry based on profit. People who get nobel peace prizes also sell carbon credits and make millions off of movies about the saving the planet ect.
most companies out there pushing "green" are FOR PROFIT. The saddest thing about it is they are taking advantage of people who are too dumb to realize it and have only the best of intentions..
I am not sure why you are so set on this. IIRC In all the life cycle analysis that I have read, the manufacture and shipping of cfl's represents about 7% of their CO2 output. 1% for incandescent. But the incandescents use staggeringly more than that through their use. Equating all manufacture, shipping and disposal the cfl is far more efficient.
The mercury content is a non issue. Just by their use the incandescent will dump far more mercury into the environment than a cfl, in terms of its contents and energy production.
Depending on their use, cfl's will have a longer or shorter life span. But even worst case they will still be better both environmentally and economically than incandescents. Personally I can't wait until they are banned.
As far as packaging is concerned, most of the cfl's I have seen are packaged in cardboard. I think your plastic packets may be a preference of the manufacturer.
I would really recommend that people do their own research if they have their doubts.
The mercury content is a non issue. Just by their use the incandescent will dump far more mercury into the environment than a cfl, in terms of its contents and energy production.
Depending on their use, cfl's will have a longer or shorter life span. But even worst case they will still be better both environmentally and economically than incandescents. Personally I can't wait until they are banned.
As far as packaging is concerned, most of the cfl's I have seen are packaged in cardboard. I think your plastic packets may be a preference of the manufacturer.
I would really recommend that people do their own research if they have their doubts.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Says the people who are pushing their use. They refuse to show the cradle-to-grave numbers. Please show me a single "study" that touches on each of the points above. You can't becuase they will not do such a study due to the inevitable results. You can't simply ignore the cradle-to-grave impact of ANY product, yet it is done by the green movement every day.
Says who? They conventional wisdom and the folks that pushing their use? They numbers you are refering to are from a study comparing the "perfect" scenario of a single CFL bulb vs a single incandesent extrapolated out to world use. They study ignores EVERY point listed about and only looks at the "watts" used in the actual creation of light. Dishonest to say the least. Cradle-to-grave is the ONLY way to look at it. Anything less is 100% dishonest.
Sure if you ignore the cradle-to-grave reality and just focus on the number of lumens they produce per watt consumed.
You can lead a horse...
yup... but when most of the available data is in the form of green hype...Anyway, can we take this conversation to the lounge or email... I hate to get a good thread this far off track.
Last edited:
Absolutely agree. Cradle to the grave is the best measure.
The green industry is just a product of the green movement. Some people are bound to exploit it.
1 person was a co-winner that makes money of a movie. Not people.
There is nothing wrong with a company making money out of environmentally friendly products or services. Thats the only way it will work.
das75
New member
Look, CFL are the way to go, must be, your neighbour to the south Mr. Castro has converted the island.
And if we all just bucked up and volunteered to pay the extra 10 cent a KWH to get power delivered to your house that was only generated by wind mills, the planet would be a better place.
And if we all just bucked up and volunteered to pay the extra 10 cent a KWH to get power delivered to your house that was only generated by wind mills, the planet would be a better place.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I got a better idea. If you and 9 other people payed an extra 1 cent a kWh, I could keep my 10 cents a kWh and that would help me buy more beer and pizza
Better than that, if you and 9 other people payed 2 more cents a kWh, I could save 10 cents a kWh and buy twice the beer and pizza Don't get me wrong folks... I certainly like the idea of finding ways to save money running my home or system. I just prefer to do so in a manner that does not mean degrading my lifestyle or comfort level
http://www.coolnrg.com/downloads/Mercury in CFLs_02.pdf
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/2007/1853382.htm
http://vienna.bioengr.uic.edu/RET/Reports/Posters/2007/Amanda.pdf
A Life Cycle Analysis is a cradle to the grave study. I thought that was clear. The above are some links I found in 5 mins on google. The data is out there. But I am happy to read any of the studies you have obviously read.
Yeah I guess we better give the Op his thread back.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/2007/1853382.htm
http://vienna.bioengr.uic.edu/RET/Reports/Posters/2007/Amanda.pdf
A Life Cycle Analysis is a cradle to the grave study. I thought that was clear. The above are some links I found in 5 mins on google. The data is out there. But I am happy to read any of the studies you have obviously read.
Yeah I guess we better give the Op his thread back.
