Electrical Question

phenom5

phenom5

Member
I'm curious for some input on an electrical question for my tank. Before I start, I do have a friend that is a licensed electrician, and he will be helping out with any major work that needs to be done. When it comes to electrical, I err on the side of caution and call in help...usually well before I am in over my head.

My tank loses power, almost daily. Usually only once daily. Sometimes it blows the GFCI receptacle, sometimes it is at the panel...usually it is at the panel.

Before we went out of town for Thanksgiving, I worked trying to isolate the problem. I thought I was overloading the circuit. It's on a 15 amp circuit, which is probably dumb, but the numbers don't add up.

If a 15 amp circuit can handle 1800 watts, absolute worse case I should still be good.

Absolute max for the tank:
3x AI Hydra52s - 405w max - which I've never run them at 100%
AI Director - ??
Maxspect Gyre Generator - 122w? - The pump is a 50w pump, the Coralvue site lists the controller as a 36vDC 2 amp...so I am guestimating 122w max (w=DC V * A correct? ) if I run the pump at full tilt, which I do not, it's actually running at 70%.
ATB 840 V2 - 16w
Tunze 6025 - 5w
QuietOne 4000 - 50w
Heater - 300w
Avast ATO w/ MJ 400 - ??
2x BRS Dosing Pump - 4w - According to BRS...if they ever were running at the same time which they do not.
ReefKeeper Head Unit - ??

And that's it. I've worked hard to try and keep the energy consumption on this tank low. So by my math, there isn't enough wattage to overload the circuit. Add in a 250w subwoofer for my surround sound (which isn't on M-F during the day, unless my chocolate lab is watching movies when we're at work), and power for a cell phone and a laptop. That's it. That's all that is on the circuit.

I'm going off what I can find online, not using a Kill-A-Watt or anything like that. But even with the holes in my calculation above...even if everything including my surround sound is running at full power, the RK head unit, ATO and AI Director would have to be pulling 600 or 700 watts to overload the circuit.

What am I missing?

My theory is...was...that when my light were running at their peak (around 75-80%), when the ATO kicked on, it shuts it down. My thought was that it was overloading the circuit, but I don't know.

My buddy, the electrician, mentioned to me that he thinks that the AFI breaker at the panel may be the problem. According to him, those trip a lot, and has suggested in the past that I could take just that circuit off the AFI.

I guess I am looking for some root cause analysis, because I am questioning my current working theory. Could it be something other than overloading the circuit that causes the breaker to trip when the ATO kicks on?
 
No electrician here either, but, I had a bad heater trip a GFI but not a regular 15 Amp circuit.
"Luckily" you have a daily incident, the real intermittent ones are hell to find.
Try running 1 item on a regular circuit until you find the culprit.
Start with the ATO itself.
If nothing shows change the breaker & see.
 
Thanks Viiny.

I am kinda back where I started. I set up a new light setting and dropped my lights down below 50% at the peak. It's been running for 2 days without issue.

Seems like I am overloading the circuit, even though the numbers don't jive. But I am not an electrician, so what the heck do I know.
 
I would start with the heater and replace it or at least place it on its own GFCI Receptacle. Also 15 amps does equal 1800 watts but continuous loads which are tanks are, are to be loaded at 80% or 1440 watts. Plus breakers trip by heat or temperature. If your panel is in the garage or outside where it is cold it will take more than 15 amps to trip, if you have several breakers getting warm next to each other it will help the breakers trip before 15 amp.
 
Vinny Kreyling said:
http://www.homedepot.com/s/Kill-A-Watt%20meter?NCNI-5

This should let you know where you are.
The only other way is to split the load with a different circuit.
Not a bad idea if you could get the main pump & heater onto another line so you at least have flow & heat if something does trip it.
Click to expand...

Probably would be a worthwhile investment, since I could get a much better handle on things with a kill-a-watt, instead of guessing.


alton said:
I would start with the heater and replace it or at least place it on its own GFCI Receptacle. Also 15 amps does equal 1800 watts but continuous loads which are tanks are, are to be loaded at 80% or 1440 watts. Plus breakers trip by heat or temperature. If your panel is in the garage or outside where it is cold it will take more than 15 amps to trip, if you have several breakers getting warm next to each other it will help the breakers trip before 15 amp.
Click to expand...

Lots of good info alton, thanks!

I thought about the heater...it's older, and was dry for about a year. But it would seem to be that any time the heater turned I would trip the breaker, no?
 
phenom5 said:
I thought about the heater...it's older, and was dry for about a year. But it would seem to be that any time the heater turned I would trip the breaker, no?
Click to expand...

No not all of the time. What could be happing is when the heater warms up for a certain amount of time one of the components inside the heater could be failing such as the rheostat or the element itself. I work on machines and an internment. failure is a real PITA to find. IMO At the cost of a new heater vrs what you probably have invested in your tank I say pitch it and buy a new one.
 
I am an rigging electrician for the studios but we deal with much larger scale power. wont go into much detail. Sometimes we have to use house power instead of running our own. Typically we go around with a load tester and test each circuit so we know how much we can load the circuit. The testers can be spendy and I havent worked with them in a while but if my memory serves me correctly it basically looks like a a big multimeter but instead of two prong testers its just a normal plug that plugs into the wall outlet. But you can test the line and keep adding more and more of an amperage load on it till it trips. Would give atleast give you an idea of what the circuit can hold.It basically tells us how many lights we can plug in before we trip the breaker. Might be worth asking your buddy about it. He may be able to get his hands on one of the testers for ya. Ill try and find a link so I can show you what it looks like. If you were closer Id let you borrow one of ours.
 
I would look into moving the motors (light ballast and pums) off that style breaker. GFIC and AFI breakers have issues with false trips when dealing with motor starts.
 
Hi. Electrician here.

Three reasons a standard (not gfci or afci) breaker may trip.. Overload, short circuit, or a damaged breaker.

Overload can occur randomly when motors or fluorescent lights start (inductive loads) start. Best way to measure for overload is a ammeter witch has a feature to show the highest current measured while attached..your electrician friend may have one..

Short circuit is a little harder to pinpoint, but a faulty heater is a great place to start. A device with a random short circuit will trip any breaker, so isolating each suspect device individually should help you track it down.

If neither of these caused the problems, you might have your electrician replace the suspect breaker with a new one. They don't cost much. They don't fail often, but the can.

As for the gfci tripping, that points to a short circuit. One of your devices is leaking current and it could be extremely dangerous.

Good luck.
 
So...an odd update here.

I switch out my Hydra52's for an ATI Sunpower. Not because of the electrical issues.

So now, it's not tripping at the panel. Instead it's just the GFCI outlet. It trips 7-8 minutes after the full lighting comes on. I reset the GFCI and then runs for the remain full lighting period without issue...right up until 7-8 minutes after the full lighting comes on the next day.

I moved the start time for the full lighting, no change.
I unplugged the main heater and used a second, known good heater in it's place, no change.

What the heck is going on?
 
I don't recall the wording exactly, but somewhat... Actually found the manual online.

Fixture trips the GFI outlet.
The T5 ballasts are UL Certified and feature a built-in protection circuit
that will turn the ballast off in case of electrical arcing or lamp failure.
This circuit makes the use of a GFI unnecessary. If you would still like
to use a GFI make sure the trigger point is greater than 1.0 milliamp.
Click to expand...

Your GFCI outlet's trigger point might be too low.

There are a number threads about them tripping with these lights.

For my new 210 I had 2 20 amp circuits run, only one of them has an GFCI outlet --- have my lights plugged into the non GFCI one. In addition, my main pump is plugged into the none GFCI outlet (( actually the EB8 is )) so that I will at least have the main pump running if the GFCI ever trips.
 
Add up all your watts and see if your exceeding the 15amps. Also some devices pull more current at start up, than running normally. A pump that's worn, but still works may pull more amps at start up.....etc....
 
Gfci receptacles trip at 4-6 milli-amps. Gfci breakers and hospital grade gfci receptacles trip at 5 milli-amps. Go buy a hospital grade gfci and see what happens
 
Toddrtrex said:
I don't recall the wording exactly, but somewhat... Actually found the manual online.



Your GFCI outlet's trigger point might be too low.

There are a number threads about them tripping with these lights.

For my new 210 I had 2 20 amp circuits run, only one of them has an GFCI outlet --- have my lights plugged into the non GFCI one. In addition, my main pump is plugged into the none GFCI outlet (( actually the EB8 is )) so that I will at least have the main pump running if the GFCI ever trips.
Click to expand...

Very interesting. I will research ATI's tripping GFCI outlets. I will also see if I have enough cord on the reef keeper module to reach the other, non-GFCI outlet behind the tank.

Flippers4pups said:
Add up all your watts and see if your exceeding the 15amps. Also some devices pull more current at start up, than running normally. A pump that's worn, but still works may pull more amps at start up.....etc....
Click to expand...

I'll have to recalculate since I changed my lights, but based on my initial calculations, I should be good. I may be getting closer with the new light, but if I am overloading the outlet, wouldn't the outlet trip every time the full lights were running? The full lights come on, and it trips after 6-7 minutes, then I reset the outlet and it runs everything for another 4 1/2 hours.

alton said:
Gfci receptacles trip at 4-6 milli-amps. Gfci breakers and hospital grade gfci receptacles trip at 5 milli-amps. Go buy a hospital grade gfci and see what happens
Click to expand...

I will have to check it out.
 
GFCI outlets can false trip due to the power factors of ballast MH especially but any can false trip them randomly. This does NOT indicate a issue with the ballast it is just how they work.

AFC breakers can also trip falsely, vacuum cleaners motors are notorious for this. Because of the high current draw at start up and the arcing inside the motor. Again does not indicate a problem.

Breakers are designed to NOT trip with a quick overload as most larger motors and devices would trip them every time you turn them on if they worked like this. They work by thermal resistance which means if the breaker is overloaded for to long then they trip. They are there to protect the wiring and outlet from overheating and causing a fire but that is about it they are NOT indented to protect you or your devices.

AFC breakers work the same but also have the added feature to trip when a electrical arc is detected on the circuit which ballast motors and some heaters may due internally and is completely normal. They will protect you from shock assuming that a arc is made during the fault.

GFCI outlets and breakers work by monitoring the incoming current and outgoing current across the 2 prongs. When one varies by more than about 5miliamps it trips because it detects that the current is being lost somewhere outside the outlet (or circuit if a GFCI breaker is used) and not being returned back to it. But again because of how ballast are made they can false trip them as well.
 
That is great, glad you were able to figure it out.


FYI, if you are using an APEX controller, those lights MAY interfere with the CondX probe --- nothing major, just calibrate the probe to when you want to read it most, with the lights on or off. It will be correct to whatever situation you calibrated with. For me, it is correct when the lights are on. Jumps around 5 points when the lights are off -- always consistent. Did plenty of testing to make sure it wasn't a safety issue.
 
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