Electrical Safety and Your Tank

staindsoul said:
how is your light mounted and how is everything plugged in (all one power strip, into one receptacle or gfi?)?

w/o a meter to actually see if have current flowing in the tank, this will be hard. i cant answer if the possible current is affecting the zoa tips, i havent personally seen the affect on corals.
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The light is up on the standard mounting legs (3" above the rim of the tank). Everything is plugged into the one outlet, via a surge protected power strip. No GFCI protection, no grounding. I'm just wondering since it isn't grounded if buying another light is even going to fix the problem, but don't know enough about electricity to know if that even matters. I just don't want to blow money replacing the light and have the same exact problem when I plug in the new one. I guess I could try to get a light that doesn't need grounding, but it seems like most of my SW lights have the 3 prong plug in.

I'm pretty sure it has to be the electricity that is frying the zoas tips. The tank has been up long enough, the alk/cal/mag isn't out of whack, and there is a healthy chaeto population in the sump to zap the phosphates and nitrates.
 
^w/o a meter try this, plug that light fixture into a different power scource other than where the rest of the equipment is plugged in. see if that works.

im assuming all your receptacles are two prong in the house, and that is why your saying you dont have a grounding electrode. i would recommend get a gfi strip for the tank equipment. it will still work, you dont need the grounding prong for that too function. you will be alot safer.

you really need to check that fixture with a meter though.
 
Also don't assume your house isn't grounded just because it has two prong outlets. Many houses have a ground to the outlet box. They just didn't install 3-prong outlets.

Either way it would be worth hiring an electrician to install a GFCI outlet for the tank. It shouldn't set you back to much. The problem with the GFCI power strips is that they will trip if there is a power outage. An outlet doesn't trip so it will come back on with the rest of the house.
 
We just bought the house and had the home inspector go over it and it definitely doesn't have any grounding. It was built in 1957 and is a solid house, but the electrical wasn't redone since then I'm guessing.

I have a couple other issues that I'm going to have to get an electrician in there for, one of which is that the room that I have the tank in only has one outlet (ie the one I'm using for the tank), so I'll see what it would cost to GFCI up the outlets I use for my tanks while he is there to run more circuits to the rest of the house.

I've already got the ballpark price quote on getting the whole house grounded and replacing the outlets and that was more than I can drop at this stage in the game.

I'll run an extension cord in from the other room and see if plugging the light into another circuit stops the stray current in the tank.

I have a buddy that has a voltmeter, I'll see if he can come and test it for me.

Thanks for your your help and expertise :)
 
I have a Neptune apex controller with a temp, ph, orp, and conductivity probe. I have all my equipment plugged into 2 different energy bars that have 8 outlets on each. These energy bars are plugged into 2 different shockbuster gfci's. All my probes are showing accurate readings except conductivity which goes from a normal reading of 35 ppt down to 11 when ever my power compacts and my 150 metal halide comes on. If I turn the lights off the reading goes back to normal. I thought this was stray voltage so I put a ground probe in the sump but nothing happened. The ground probe is plugged into one of the 3 outlets on the gfci. I'm thinking of getting a second ground probe for the tank, but at this point I don't have a clue how to fix this. I'm thinking of calling an electrician to ground the whole tank if that's even possible? Anyone have any suggestions?
 
You don't need a second ground probe and you don't even have a problem.
a reading of 35 or even 60 is not a problem, if it were 108 or so, then thats a leak someplace and as soon as you put your hand in the tank, you would be thrown across the room so as long as that is not happening, go out to dinner and forget about it.
 
A second probe wouldn't change anything. The first probe in the sump grounded the whole tank.

This is just pure theory thinking out loud, It sounds like the ballasts are causing interference on the circuit. Electronic ballast drive a high frequency current, and iron core ballasts offer impedance to regulate the voltage. Etheir one could possibly interfere with that probes operation. I'm assuming that probe has to work on a voltage from a line to load and the processor determines the ppt.

Can you run a cord and run those light fixtures on a separate circuit to see if you get the same results? If you don't get the same results, you will need to separate the lights from the circuit that the aqua controller is on.

Edit:agree with Paul b. from a safety stand point your good. Your lights are jacking your probe reading, but its not a safety issue, it's a electronic issue.

Paul I believe he is referring to a salinity probe. From 35 ppt down to 11 ppt.
 
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Paul I believe he is referring to a salinity probe. From 35 ppt down to 11 ppt.
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Mitchell, thank you for correcting me, I thought he was talking about stray voltage as I don't have a salinity probe or ever saw one.
One thing though, if your ground probe is in your sump, put it in your tank.
If your pumps are off, the probe may not ground anything in your tank itself. It needs a conductor to the tank which will be water and only if the pumps are running.
It's not that important but something to think about.
 
Paul B said:
One thing though, if your ground probe is in your sump, put it in your tank.
If your pumps are off, the probe may not ground anything in your tank itself. It needs a conductor to the tank which will be water and only if the pumps are running.
It's not that important but something to think about.
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I like it!
 
Thx guys and yes I was referring to conductivity probe readings. I agree that my ballasts are causing interference with my conductivity probe reading. I will run an extension cord to a different outlet and test the lights. The only problem is I bought this controller to run all my equipment so I need to have it all plugged in together so I can turn equipment on or off when necessary and not just on a timer. Are there any insulation sleeves that could be used on the ballast wires to prevent this interference?
 
This topic is confusing to me. I read through this post and find your thoughts persuasive but then I read through another post or article and find their arguments equally persuasive! The quality of thinking on both sides of this discussion is impressive so I am hard pressed to think one side or the other is "simply confused" about the facts--unless the "other" side does not contain any master electricians or electrical engineers.

1. First question then is do master electricians disagree among one another about the need for a ground probe in a saltwater aquarium, and if so why?

2. Do electrical engineers disagree among one another about the need for a ground probe in a saltwater aquarium, and if so why?

3. Finally, do master electricians disagree with electrical engineers about the need for a ground probe in a saltwater aquarium, and if so why?
 
Crackem said:
Thx guys and yes I was referring to conductivity probe readings. I agree that my ballasts are causing interference with my conductivity probe reading. I will run an extension cord to a different outlet and test the lights. The only problem is I bought this controller to run all my equipment so I need to have it all plugged in together so I can turn equipment on or off when necessary and not just on a timer. Are there any insulation sleeves that could be used on the ballast wires to prevent this interference?
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i see that issue of your controller being for everything. try separating the cords as much as possible, mainly the light cords. unfortunatly i dont think the cords would be close for a long enough time to cause that. outside of actually being there or replacing fixtures, i cant think of anything else to try. unless the cord test works, you could use a isolation relay and a separate circuit, but that is not a simple fix and wouldnt be cheap.

hopefully someone has run into that with those probes that can chime in. or contact the controller manufacturer. maybe they have had this happen.
 
Are there any insulation sleeves that could be used on the ballast wires to prevent this interference?
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I can't see your set up from here, (maybe if I stood on my house, but I don't think so)
There is no insulation you could put on your cords to prevent that but the ballasts themselves are putting out a lot of interference themselves so the wires are only part of the issue. I still don't see a problem. Everything electrical that uses AC power will put out some interference. It's normal. To me anyway.

1. First question then is do master electricians disagree among one another about the need for a ground probe in a saltwater aquarium, and if so why?

2. Do electrical engineers disagree among one another about the need for a ground probe in a saltwater aquarium, and if so why?

3. Finally, do master electricians disagree with electrical engineers about the need for a ground probe in a saltwater aquarium, and if so why?
Click to expand...

I can't answer for anyone else and I like to stay out of grounding discussions because of just too many experts, but any body of water such as a pool, fountain, hot tub etc, by law must be grounded. They don't qualify fish tanks in that law because it would be un-inforceable inside someone's house. The ocean, lakes and rivers are already grounded so we don't have to worry about them.
The reason you don't get shocked in the ocean if you are swimming and lightning hits the water is because the ocean is grounded. A ground is there for your protection, not the fish. All it does is direct any current that accidently gets into your water to the ground rather than to you. We have all sorts of line voltage appliances in our tanks such as pumps and heaters and lights over it. All that is keeping you from dying of electricution is a sliver of plastic insulation 1/32" thick. I am even surprised that the law allows line voltage devices in a tank at all.
We usually don't find out if these devices fail until we stick our hand in the tank and get thrown across the room. Belive me, as an electrician that has happened to me dozens of times and if your heart happens to be at a certain part of it's beat cycle, you will either die, or just get shocked. It also sometimes leaves you with a sharp pain in your heart letting you know that maybe you should have gotten a ground probe. If it happens to you once, I can guarantee you will get a ground probe. I have seen a couple of people die right in front of me from electricution, it is not a painless way to die and I have also seen large wounds from electricity that take forever to heal, it is your life.
There is no down side to using a ground probe.
That is my opinion.
 
i cant answer those, dont know enough people for that. here is where the argument lays.

without a ground probe you will read a "voltage" between grounding and the tank. there is no current flowing. because there is no circuit. the tank has no ground or nuetral. this "voltage" is a measurement of difference of potential, not current carrying.

when you put a ground probe in the tank, now you have brought the tank to the same potential of the grounding conductor. now the tank can complete a circuit, but the "stray voltage" is now gone because your meter is not reading a potential difference.

the argument starts imo wether that voltage will carry a small current and be harmful(which it would have to be lower than 5ma to not trip a gfi), and leaving the probe out wouldnt allow any current on that "voltage". i side that "voltage" is not current carrying merely a potential measurement, and feel a ground probe should be used. otherwise you will be fully relying on the gfi to instantaneously trip when you put your hand in the tank w/o a probe.(which im a master electrician, i dont like thowing that title around because most guys that say that are just puffing themselves up and master electricans can be dumb. not a jab at paul)

i think its more hobbyists arguing than engineers or is electricians.

run a gfi at least, then decide what side of the fence youll stand on :lol:

Lavoisier said:
This topic is confusing to me. I read through this post and find your thoughts persuasive but then I read through another post or article and find their arguments equally persuasive! The quality of thinking on both sides of this discussion is impressive so I am hard pressed to think one side or the other is "simply confused" about the facts--unless the "other" side does not contain any master electricians or electrical engineers.

1. First question then is do master electricians disagree among one another about the need for a ground probe in a saltwater aquarium, and if so why?

2. Do electrical engineers disagree among one another about the need for a ground probe in a saltwater aquarium, and if so why?

3. Finally, do master electricians disagree with electrical engineers about the need for a ground probe in a saltwater aquarium, and if so why?
Click to expand...
 
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