Ethical Aspects of a Very Large Live Rock Purchase

[KarlBob]

Over in the Large Reef Tanks forum, Nahham is starting to consider the live rock requirements of his ~19,000 gallon aquarium. One option is to use quarried "dead" rock for the vast majority of the rockwork, then seed it with a few hundred to a thousand pounds of "live" rock. Another option would be to order a barge-load of live rock, direct from the ocean. (Okay, a small barge-load; your typical ocean-going barge is HUGE.)

Thinking about a single order to a supplier for that much rock made me wonder about the source. Most live rock suppliers probably say that their rock is harvested from the rubble zones near reefs, but I've read about suspicions (and eyewitness evidence, though certainly not verified by me) that some companies chisel, crush, or dynamite living reefs for live rock.

What do you think? Would a single order for 10,000 to 20,000 lbs of live rock represent a stronger temptation to employ demolition equipment or high explosives than 100 separate orders for 100 lbs of rock? Are there stronger ethical strings attached to placing a huge individual order than contributing to a small piece of a wholesaler's order?

 

[JeF4y]

I don't think it would present any temptations to an honest business. And if the business is dishonest, I don't think that they would need a 20,000# order to bust it off of a living reef.

There are liverock "farms". Heck, just last year there was $1M in liverock that was stolen from one...

However, if I personally was going to order 10k+lbs of liverock, I'd fly down to see where exactly it's coming from, and strike the deal with the owner. This isn't something you click "add to cart" over...

 

[KarlBob]

There are liverock "farms". Heck, just last year there was $1M in liverock that was stolen from one...

Wow, I missed that story! Aside from the sale value of the rock, that's a theft of years of effort to get a permit (if it was a US farm, in other countries it might be a shorter process), then additional years waiting for the rock to be colonized.

However, if I personally was going to order 10k+lbs of liverock, I'd fly down to see where exactly it's coming from, and strike the deal with the owner. This isn't something you click "add to cart" over...

I agree 100%. A purchase this size seems too important to skip the personal touch.

 

[Scooter902]

Don't forget the over all size of the reefs. Even 20,000lbs is a drop in the bucket. Rubble is anything that is seperated from the reef. I have seen 20' x 20' junks of rubble.

20,000lbs is nothing. Would be an interesting purchase. The add to cart line was funny.

 

[jasonrp104]

I thought that the "stolen rock" was actually buried by a storm.

As for the subject, I'm in the boat that a company would rather keep thier reputation intact than go blowing up a reef. Too much risk

 

[KarlBob]

Don't forget the over all size of the reefs. Even 20,000lbs is a drop in the bucket. Rubble is anything that is seperated from the reef. I have seen 20' x 20' junks of rubble.

20,000lbs is nothing. Would be an interesting purchase. The add to cart line was funny.

Okay, I can see that reefs might operate on a different scale than humans. A drop in the bucket, though? That's a vast gulf of scale.

I wonder what it takes to dislodge a 20'x20' section of reef. Maybe a hurricane? Then again, reefs grow by accumulation. If you had a vertical wall that became wider at the top than the bottom, eventually gravity might do the job.

 

[Beaun]

I thought that the "stolen rock" was actually buried by a storm.

It did, they jumped to conclusions and a bunch of other companies came out and said that they have lost their stuff in the same way and it is just burried under the sand.

 

[KarlBob]

It did, they jumped to conclusions and a bunch of other companies came out and said that they have lost their stuff in the same way and it is just burried under the sand.

They might need to send a boat out with a sonar array to find the rocks under the sand, or just hope that the next storm sucks the sand away from their rock-field instead of burying it.

 

[g8gxp]

Ive been following that thread too and although 10,000 to 20,000 lbs of rock is alot, it is nowhere near enough to justify the expense needed to demo your own rock. I mean you would be talking explosive material, specially certified dive team, permits, environmental mitigation, transport, etc.

 

[Adam_T]

I agree with g8gxp. That would be a bit "extreme" for the "normal" companies.

 

[KarlBob]

you would be talking explosive material, specially certified dive team, permits, environmental mitigation, transport, etc.

In the US, this is true. On the other hand, the 19,000 gallon tank we're discussing is located in the United Arab Emirates. The live rock might come from the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, or Southeast Asia. There are many places in the world where diver certifications, permits, and environmental mitigation plans carry far less weight than in Florida.

 

[aiaman]

why not collect the LR from local farms?
dont local LFS grow their own tanks they do in my neck of the woosds.
No need to cleav of hunks of whatever as you can get LR anytime.
Also w/o LR the tank will take longer to cycle and the more you add LR the less cycling needed. I had no cycling w/my tank since I used way more than needed.
for a serious tank a serious amount of KR is needed.

 

[g8gxp]

why not collect the LR from local farms?
dont local LFS grow their own tanks they do in my neck of the woosds.
No need to cleav of hunks of whatever as you can get LR anytime.
Also w/o LR the tank will take longer to cycle and the more you add LR the less cycling needed. I had no cycling w/my tank since I used way more than needed.
for a serious tank a serious amount of KR is needed.

Normally yes this is true, but in this particular build i believe he is direct pumping seawater.

 

[KarlBob]

I don't know whether there are any local live rock farms in the UAE. It takes time and money to collect tons of dead rock, place it on the bottom, wait for it to be colonized, and bring it back up. If companies (in the UAE or neighboring countries) can simply collect live rock at will from the reefs, then I doubt very many will go to the effort of farming it.

 

[returnofsid]

Wouldn't Tufa Stone be a good alternative? I've used Tufa Stone in a couple different reef tanks and it quickly became live rock. After all, Tufa Stone is ancient live rock.

 

[lordofthereef]

Plenty of places will actually throw dead rock overboard and leave it for a year or two to become live. One of these places, for example, is tampabaysaltwater. One can surely acquire enough rock that is responsibly farmed this way. I think the cost prohibitive factor is the greater factor in this case. Most people don;t have houses that cost as much as it would cost to get that rock delivered.

 

[returnofsid]

Could you imagine Mr. Brown's (UPS Delivery Driver) reaction, as he gets in his truck!!!???

 

[KarlBob]

Plenty of places will actually throw dead rock overboard and leave it for a year or two to become live. One of these places, for example, is tampabaysaltwater... Most people don;t have houses that cost as much as it would cost to get that rock delivered.

Shipping at least 10,000 lbs (4,536 kg) of live rock over the 7,859 miles (12,645 km) between Tampa Bay, Florida and the United Arab Emirates. Houses? I think there might be small towns available on EBay for less than the cost of that delivery. Does anyone have access to a UPS or FedEx rate calculator?

 

[KarlBob]

Okay. Here's a quick estimate from FedEx. I entered the ZIP code for Tampa Bay Saltwater as the starting point. I don't know which city is closest to the tank, so I chose Dubai as the destination. I assumed the shipment would be broken up into 5 containers weighing 2,000 lbs each (pretending the containers are weightless for the sake of simplicity).

1. Ship From / To
From: Tampa, 33603, United States | To: Dubai, United Arab Emirates on March 12, 2010.

2. Skid Information
Package Details: 5 skid(s), 2000.0 lbs, Your Packaging.

Amounts are shown in USD
FedEx International Priority® Freight: $99,867.50
FedEx International Economy® Freight: $68,800.00

That's actually much cheaper than I thought it would be. Definitely in the house/condo/apartment price range, rather than the small town price range.

 

[KarlBob]

What's sad about it, Fishinboy84?