Ever paired flame angels?

J

joshalicialtjt

In Memoriam
Is there anyway to sex these guys without going for an experimental test run droppin in a new one? Was thinkin of takin home a little guy today and seeing what happened with my existing one. I was looking at another tank and he had 6 being kept happily in a 180. wasn't sure if i needed to try a harem or if i would have the same luck just trying 2 in one tank . . .
 
I'm not entirely sure except by size, but I've been told that males have bolder black and deeper red then the females. I do know that they are hermaphrodites that are age and dominant dependent. What that means is smaller ones are female and larger ones are male. The problem is that they are seperated once they are collected so they may begin to change sex after being in a collectors tanks, wholesalers, and the LFS. Once the change begins it can not be reversed so they will fight. Your best bet is to purchase the smallest one you could find and hope for the best.
 
can anyone else back this up i wasnt aware that the dwarf angels were capable of such change. only thought that the clowns and anthias were able to swap around
 
Dwarf angels for sure (and presumably the whole family of Pomacanthidae) are sequential protogynous hermaphrodites (developing into females first... than males). Anthias are also this way... clownfish are sequential protandrous hermaphrodites (developing into males first, then females).

It has been scientifically documented that dwarf angels can revert back from male to female, however when pairing or forming a harem it is best to start with all smaller individuals... I have many pairs and harems and spawning is not that tough to achieve...
 
Having been friends with Frank Baensch of RCT for years, the man to first raise Centropyge... and the only one to do in great numbers and with purpose (the other two just pumped ocean water in), I know what goes into raising the fry... Frank was able to do it with wild plankton seines on Oahu, and even isolated the larval food to two species of copepod nauplii... and did YEARS of tinkering and research on top of that... there is a reason he's the only one to have done it so far... and with me being married with a two year old and a second on the way next month... I know I do not have the time... I already need to take care of over 1000 gallons of systems in my house (and over 20 angels!)... for now I enjoy just watching the interaction and spawning just before lights out... it is such a joy seeing these fish behave so naturally in our glass boxes... :)

In regards to finding "small dwarf angels" you really don't need SMALL... you just need to stay away from placing two stud large males together... there is much more that goes into forming a pair or harem... but basically is you could get them to not kill eachother at first they're eventually pair and spawn under the right conditions... people use what I call the "dump and hope approach" that has perpetuated the myth that you could not keep angels in pairs or harems in our tanks... they take a new fish that has been potentially weeks in transit with little to no food and dump it in with an established fish resulting in the new fish being torn apart! They then say, " you can't mix angels!"... I always say with all fish... it's much more how you mix than what you mix...
 
that's really great information. so if i have an existing flame in the tank that has been there for about 2 months and i take a smaller flame from the lfs that has been here about 3 months but is a third of the size, is there a decent chance of pairing them? You said a lot of people do the dump and hope approach so if there is an existing flame in my tank now, what other approach may I use to get the best possible results. If it's not worth it and they will stress one another out too much then I would prefer to just leave the one by himself. Thanks so much for the information it is greatly appreciated ":)
 
males generally have pointed tail fins, while females are more rounded. Potters males have more blue through the mid section and females are paler or more orange. It is easy with small individuals to pair up so they can determine who will be the male and subordinate. Trying to pair 2 larger ones is rather difficult. I'm pretty good at pairing, flames, multicolor, potters, multibar, coral beauty. It is easy when you get a lot of them to mix and match.
 
Hey Josh, under your circumstances you need to be careful...

Before ever attempting to mix any angels... or fish for that matter... you need to make sure the new fish is 100% healhty, fat, and adapted to captive life... even when done right, pairing is stressful on the fish (or in our cases... think of when you met your wife or significant other)... So, making sure the new addition is fully quarantined, adapted, and disease free is an absolute prerequisite... and should be even when not attempting to pair...

So, with that said... we'll go as is we're assuming the new little girl is in that state... IDEALLY you should remove the larger individual that is established for at least two weeks or so and place the smaller individual in your system for those two weeks to settle. That is not necessary however, but again ideal. For those experienced with this you could transition the new fish in by other means... I am actually going to start a separate thread on this principle because it is so important yet so overlooked and I get asked questions so many times about this. Allowing the two fish to see eachother but not tough is the other route... adding the new fish in either perhaps a sectioned off part of the tank with eggcrate, or in a small plastic "critter keeper". ALWAYS be sure the new individual is kept in an environment that is as stress free as possible... prolonged STRESS equals onset of disease and death many times... so always make sure your fish is calm and relaxed with a place to seek refuge... Obviously when moving the fish they are stressed but this short term stress is not an issue most of the time... After a couple weeks of seeing eachother the aggression is usually tolerable for the new fish and it works out... but again be aware there are many dynamics to this... leaving the tank light off for a few days also after mixing is a tactic that lessens aggression also... it's a cloudy day on the reef and your corals will be fine... ambient room light will suffice for the fish...

So, you could attempt using those means, but it is important you have experience handling fish to do this... those are the basics but again you could really write a book on all of the nuances and tricks...

The reward however is fantastic! Seeing your angels interact and spawn is such a treat each night...

Copps
 
sounds great, ill have to do some more planning and what not because i dont want to do anything short of ideal. not right to take them from their home and then put them under even more stress if its not needed. :(
 
are they going to be doing the same dances that my clowns did before they pair off or is it just going to be them picking on one another until each is tolerated and they swim together. what are some good signs that they are pairing and then are finally paired aside from the obvious answer of spawning?
 
The social acclimation with a transparent breeder cup is what I do to introduce new flasher and fairy wrasses. Works well. What I use was custom made by a guy on ebay that sells fish traps and breeder cups. Thanks John, I will look for your thread on angels.
 
In case anyone was wondering whatever happened to the crazy guy wanting to pair up 2 flames he is still here and they are both in the tank now. The newest one was in a large critter carrier but somehow opened the lid lol. They still bicker here and there but do not seek one another out to throw down. They will eat alongside one another and will swim together sometimes but still chase each other every once in awhile. Not sure if they will pair off though . . . . is it the same as in clowns that one will become the more submissive and their sexes will then be decided? If not I think I may just end up with two males that coexist relatively well lol.
 
Sounds like you have a match, josh.

I have a pair of Flameback Angels who exhibit the same daytime behavior as your flames. In the evening, just as the lights begin to go out, they often exhibit mating behavior together. Once, I even caught the female releasing her eggs.

Good luck with them.
 
don't think the pairing has anything to do with nipping at the corals. i think more of the individual specimen along with what you feed them has the most influence over whether or not they will nip.
 
About 7 months ago I bought a mated pair of flames from a very good lfs, about a month after they were placed into my tank the female died, for unknow reason, I waited about a month and went back the lfs a bought another female, this lfs really does a good job of makeing sure the fish are eatting and have no problems before they sell them, I put the new female into the tank, and left the light off for 2 days with the tank raped in a dark sheet for one day, when the light finally came on there was a little chaseing from time to time but nothing to cause any concern. they have now exited in the tank together for well over 3 months the do the spanning dance every now and then. I also need to mention that the tank already had a CB that has been with me for 3 1/2 years. It can be done, imho i beleive leaving the lights off and letting the new one get confortable in the tank is a key. good luck
 
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