Experiment - Dosing Ammonia

neoyhng

New member
I have recently started an experiment "“ dosing ammonia to a reef tank. The primary aim for my experiment was to reduce phosphate, which I have difficulties controlling, through dosing nitrogen compound. While the experiment is still running, I would like to share some observations as well as inviting comments to the way I am doing it and the result of the experiment.

Background

After a catastrophic failure of the chiller which wiped out 90% of my coral 2 years ago, I restarted my 1,200L (approximately 330G) but due to financial consideration I could only use all the old rock, which were covered with algae and red slim at the time. I managed to clean most of which with elbow grease, and added a parrot fish (yes, the coral crusher) to the tank with a hope that it will help keep the algae in check. After about 3 months when the system seemed to have stablelized, I started to add SPS to the tanks and fortunately, they survive"¦.although not in much of a good shape, barely any growth with poor coloration. The problem, I believed, appeared to be the phosphate level, which was at 1ppm. Other parameters were fine.

6 months after restart I started to battle with the phosphates. Various methods had been employed, including biopellets, VSV dosing, GFO, ATS, they all works somehow, but once the phosphate level reached 0.1ppm it refused to go down further, no matters how I "œtwisted" the dosing and how much I increase the amount of GFO used, the o.1ppm remained the same. During the period I added more and more corals and fishes, and other than the colour of the coral, everything seemed fine; corals were growing and fishes were healthy and eating well. I even added a melon butterfly (kind of crazy"¦) to the tank as I though the growth of my coral could substantiate it dietary need. Fortunately I was right and the melon butterfly is still here (over 9 months) and getting really fat without any severe damages done to the corals.

But I am not satisfied. The colour of my coral was still not good, especially the red ones which all turned dark brown within weeks after entering my tank. I believed it had something to do with the phosphate level, and hence I looked into the idea of dosing nitrogen compound to facilitate export of phosphate. At first I wished to use nitrate, but unfortunately pure nitrate compound are heavily controlled in my country and it is virtually impossible for me to obtain pure nitrate compound. I therefore turned to ammonia, which is more assessable and from what I read, it should be more readily used by bacterium and algae. The only concerned would be its toxicity to fishes and invert.

Experiment

Starting 17 Nov, I add 1ml of 5% ammonia to my tank twice every day, one dose in the morning and one dose in the night. Since 1 Dec, each dose was increased to 2ml. By 15 Dec I further increased the dose to 3ml and since then I maintained the dose for fear of poisoning my fishes. All other filtration equipment in used (skimmer, biopellet and ATS) remained status quote although adjustment to skimmer was necessary to prevent overflow. There was no change in lighting period.

Observations

Phosphate level were monitored using Hanna Phosphate LR meter every two days. The generalized readings are as follows:

Week 1: 0.1ppm
Week 2: 0.1ppm
Week 3:0.08 ppm
Week 4: 0.07 ppm
Week 5: 0.06 ppm
Week 6: 0.06 ppm.

Nitrate level was also monitored using Salifert test kits and it read zero all the time.

There were some noticeable changes in the tank. First of all, the skimmer went nut after the second weeks and I had to dial down the water level to prevent overflow. There was also an increase in KH demand and I need to increase CO2 input to the calcium reactor to make up the requirement. Water clarity seems to have improved, and corals are lighten up a bit, with red being more visible now. Algae on ATS grow like crazy and I have to clean it weekly instead of monthly before. Coral growth is difficult to estimate, but at least there is no receding observed.

There were also some adverse effects. Since week 3 when I up the dose to 2ml, patches of red slim began to appear here and there and I have to clean it manually. There are also one or two spots of itch developed on one of my tangs since week 5 and although it does not get more serious, I am closely monitoring. Some other fishes (mostly wrasses) also seems to be stressed when I added the ammonia, although the effect last only 1/2 an hour or so.

Any views/advice is much appreciated.

Neo
 
Neo,
Wow! Where do I start? I soulds to me like you are continually striping the system of EVERYTHING!!!!
How low do you want the phosphate levels???? 0.01 is too low. Let them rise to about 0.04 and leave it at that. Stop stripping the water of everything.
Also, your nitrates are too low as well. Some algae is normal and essential for corals and fish health.
I clean my glass about every 3 days. Micro algae is good. You need to find the balance of that tank.
Adding ammonia to the tank? You are adding poison into the water. Yes, 1.0 ppm phosphate was too much. I agree. But you are trying to completely remove all phosphate from the system. NOT GOOD.
You are effecting everything in the tank already adding ammonia. You are poisoning the animals. And you will not see it destroying internal organs in your fish. When you do see signs, it will be too late.
Do water changes to help get your levels where they need to be. No more ammonia additions. Let the phosphate levels rise a bit, as well as nitrate.
Any picture of the system you can post?
Good luck with it. It really sounds like you need to take a break from the tank!
 
meshwheel,

You are the only one I ever met who believes a phosphate level of 0.04 ppm is acceptable....

As for ammonia, I shared your concern but if my calculation is correct I was only increasing 0.00025 ppm of ammonia everyday, which is way less than the toxic levels of all references I came across. And since no nitrate is building up I am confident that all ammonia had been consumed everyday. That said, I would not increase the dose further since fishes seem to need time to adjust.
 
Experiment - Dosing Ammonia

Here is my take on what is happening, I believe that by adding the ammonia, you are basically increasing the bioload on your reef, increasing Nitrate levels. Bacteria and algae is then using the Nitrate and phosphate in their growth. They are being skimmed out or removed by the ATS, and thus, lowering Phosphates.

I don't see any problems with dosing ammonia, it's essentially adding another/more fish to the system. Everyone poops/pees.

You should strive for Phosphate levels of 0.03ppm, lower than that you risk starving the system, higher and you retard calcification.

Since you are running an ATS, your Phosphate levels are going to be much higher than that recorded, so I wouldn't think you are at the point of starving coral.
 
Algae on ATS grow like crazy and I have to clean it weekly instead of monthly before.

If the Algae growth is as fast as stated, there must be a decent supply of Phosphate. If I am missing something, please, just ignore me :D

A Phosphate test can only measure the concentration of Phosphate that is present in the water column, if it locked away ( i.e In Hair Algae) then the amount of Phosphate in the system is going to be higher. At least that is my understanding
 
Here is my take on what is happening, I believe that by adding the ammonia, you are basically increasing the bioload on your reef, increasing Nitrate levels. Bacteria and algae is then using the Nitrate and phosphate in their growth. They are being skimmed out or removed by the ATS, and thus, lowering Phosphates.

This was what I thought, and given the increasing skimmer output I am of the believe that this is what happening. However, I don't think this is as simple as a increase in bioload, since I also noticed some "behavioural" changes.

IN any case, I will keep going, and might report in another week time.
 
I don't personally see any issues with dosing such a small amount of ammonia to a tank that large, but I do have a couple of observations that might lower the risk further:

Since ammonia is extremely toxic, and one would expect that the ammonia concentration in the tank would be highest when added as a once-a-day bolus dose, you could potentially be exposing your fish to a fairly high transient ammonia concentration. For this reason, I'd consider the idea of diluting the ammonia and adding it by dosing pump throughout the day. That would keep the water concentration to the lowest level possible. Since I assume you're using ammonium hydroxide (that's the form that's sold as a liquid), diluting it and dosing it over time would also prevent a pH spike, though with such a small amount I doubt it would affect your tank's water pH much.

If you wish to use nitrate instead, one can often purchase nitrate in the form of potassium nitrate in a pharmacy - it's sold as "saltpeter". Also, sodium nitrate is usually a lot easier to obtain than either potassium nitrate or ammonium nitrate, since its suitability for use in explosives is a good deal lower than those other two compounds.
 
I don't personally see any issues with dosing such a small amount of ammonia to a tank that large, but I do have a couple of observations that might lower the risk further:

Since ammonia is extremely toxic, and one would expect that the ammonia concentration in the tank would be highest when added as a once-a-day bolus dose, you could potentially be exposing your fish to a fairly high transient ammonia concentration. For this reason, I'd consider the idea of diluting the ammonia and adding it by dosing pump throughout the day. That would keep the water concentration to the lowest level possible. Since I assume you're using ammonium hydroxide (that's the form that's sold as a liquid), diluting it and dosing it over time would also prevent a pH spike, though with such a small amount I doubt it would affect your tank's water pH much.

If you wish to use nitrate instead, one can often purchase nitrate in the form of potassium nitrate in a pharmacy - it's sold as "saltpeter". Also, sodium nitrate is usually a lot easier to obtain than either potassium nitrate or ammonium nitrate, since its suitability for use in explosives is a good deal lower than those other two compounds.

Many thanks for your advice. I also wish to divide the dosing throughout the day but my work does not allow it. A dosing pump might be an option but I am only carrying out an experiment and I don't want to invest too much. By the way, I never observed any PH change when I add the Ammonia.

I wish to get nitrate also, but it is not an option here.....I just learnt that all pure nitrate are "controlled" substance here in Hong Kong and you can't import, selling or buying it without a license.....for use as ferterlizer it has to be mixed with phosphate or other substance to make it less "pure"....forget it then.
 
Just a pic for interest

DSC01718.JPG
 
If the Algae growth is as fast as stated, there must be a decent supply of Phosphate. If I am missing something, please, just ignore me :D

A Phosphate test can only measure the concentration of Phosphate that is present in the water column, if it locked away ( i.e In Hair Algae) then the amount of Phosphate in the system is going to be higher. At least that is my understanding
I don't want to hijack the thread, but I never understood the claim that there's more phosphate in the water column but it cannot be measured because alga are utilizing faster than it can be read in a test. It's either in the water column or it's not. If the uptake is that quick, then the water column is relatively free of PO4 if tests do not display it in a meaningful reading. That's the way I see it.

I'm not singling you out. I'm just wondering if there are any studies or tests to prove this repeated claim of high phosphates that cannot be read because alga are present. Now if alga are present, it can opportunistically snatch up PO4 as it is released from organics when it passes the alga, but the concentration in the water column is probably close to what ever is measured by a test.

Removing the alga will allow other means of export of minor concentrations of PO4. Meaning that if GFO or some other form of filtration is present, that will have the opportunity to remove it instead of the alga. However I do not believe there's more PO4 present but a test isn't reading it. That just doesn't make sense.
 
I always take my test water directly above the sand bed. This way, it's more raw with phosphate then possibly getting sample water that just ran through a gfo reactor for instance.
Trying to get phosphate down below 0.01 in my opinion is unreasonable. 0.02-0.04 is fine for color. 0.04-0.08 is better for growth.
A zero reading of either or is not good, and you will be missing out on color. The corals will be in a weak state.
Then adding ammonia to the tank is not good. Obviously! And he's noticing it visually now. Internally he cannot see it. Just like when a guy goes a buys a fish at the store. Looks good, buys it and a few days later it's dead or will not eat. It almost dies in the ammonia laden water it was shipped in, and it's liver is destroyed.
In my opinion, he's playing with fire. If the tank is balanced out correctly, it will run right without all the things he's doing and trying. Thats a big tank, and will take time to build up the correct ratios of whats needed to operate properly.
Did he rinse the dead rock out and let the dead material leach out before placing it in the tank? Probably not. And it's much harder starting out that way vs. live rock.
So, because of money restraints in the beginning, he's giving all the money away now fighting a system thats not matured, and will take much much longer with the absence of microfauna, bacteria etc.
Adding GFO will in fact take up what the bacteria could be utilizing and building on.
He saved nothing, and the animals suffer. Who has said phosphates and nitrates need to be testing zero for corals to grow and do well?
 
I always take my test water directly above the sand bed. This way, it's more raw with phosphate then possibly getting sample water that just ran through a gfo reactor for instance.
Trying to get phosphate down below 0.01 in my opinion is unreasonable. 0.02-0.04 is fine for color. 0.04-0.08 is better for growth.
A zero reading of either or is not good, and you will be missing out on color. The corals will be in a weak state.
Then adding ammonia to the tank is not good. Obviously! And he's noticing it visually now. Internally he cannot see it. Just like when a guy goes a buys a fish at the store. Looks good, buys it and a few days later it's dead or will not eat. It almost dies in the ammonia laden water it was shipped in, and it's liver is destroyed.
In my opinion, he's playing with fire. If the tank is balanced out correctly, it will run right without all the things he's doing and trying. Thats a big tank, and will take time to build up the correct ratios of whats needed to operate properly.
Did he rinse the dead rock out and let the dead material leach out before placing it in the tank? Probably not. And it's much harder starting out that way vs. live rock.
So, because of money restraints in the beginning, he's giving all the money away now fighting a system thats not matured, and will take much much longer with the absence of microfauna, bacteria etc.
Adding GFO will in fact take up what the bacteria could be utilizing and building on.
He saved nothing, and the animals suffer. Who has said phosphates and nitrates need to be testing zero for corals to grow and do well?
I agree that there's no sound reason to have zero reading for either PO4 or NO3. However properly metered, I don't see an issue with this experiment. We add all sorts of "pollutants" to the water column in an effort to control others. GAC can be detrimental if used improperly. I just think he would be better off using a pure nitrate source, but he claims it's not available. However I'll be willing to bet food grade sodium nitrate is available in Hong Kong.

The other stuff you added was unnecessary. From the pic he provided, he/she looks like they know how to manage a tank with some measure of success.
 
I'd consider the idea of diluting the ammonia and adding it by dosing pump throughout the day.

Good idea in any dosing, IMO.

Also since you run an ATS, I'd love to see the results if you were to dose the NH3 directly into the input of your ATS, (continually as stated above.) If you don't have the equipment right now, you could always drip it for continual dose until long term dosing requirements are determined and equipment was then acquired. Nh3 is the preferred source of nitrogen for algae to use in photosynthesis to my understanding... So that could potentially lead to some interesting results.

As far as the statement of more PO4 in the system when using an ATS, where this is technically true, the purpose of the ATS is to export those bound up nutrients... So somewhat irrelevant.

Also, you stated that alk usage increased... This COULD be due to the increased production of the ATS if waterfall style? Might consider adding air or co2/ca reactor effluent to the ATS input to counter this.
 
Trying to get phosphate down below 0.01 in my opinion is unreasonable. 0.02-0.04 is fine for color. 0.04-0.08 is better for growth.
A zero reading of either or is not good, and you will be missing out on color. The corals will be in a weak state.
Then adding ammonia to the tank is not good. Obviously! And he's noticing it visually now. Internally he cannot see it. Just like when a guy goes a buys a fish at the store. Looks good, buys it and a few days later it's dead or will not eat. It almost dies in the ammonia laden water it was shipped in, and it's liver is destroyed.
In my opinion, he's playing with fire. If the tank is balanced out correctly, it will run right without all the things he's doing and trying. Thats a big tank, and will take time to build up the correct ratios of whats needed to operate properly.

I think we have to differentiate what is necessary and what is available. Sure, living organism need nitrates and phosphates, but FREE nitrate and phosphates in water, which is what the test kits are measuring, cannot be use by animals like corals and fishes. Just like human being, we cannot intake carbon dioxide direct for nutrition; we need plant to convert it to sugar before it is "available" to human. Free phosphate and nitrate in water only indicate that there is an imbalance in the tank and I am trying not to "eliminate" them, but to convert the free phosphate into something that is "available" to corals and inverts, and in a form that can be easily removed when there is an excess.

The adding of ammonia is to provide the "ingredient" for existing inhabitants in the tank, i.e. algae and bacterium, to consume the phosphates and incorporate it into their biomass which can then be available to corals and inverts. Algae and bacterium can also be much easier to be removed from the tank if in excess. Through close observation of the health of inhabitants I can then access whether something is "overdone" and rectify.

By the way, the scenario you talked about is cyanide poisoning, not ammonia. I do know the danger of ammonia, and as a matter of fact I am acting very cautiously... if I really wish to eliminate all phosphate with ammonia in one go I will theoretically need to raise the ammonia level to around 1.6ppm...what I am adding is only 1/6400 of what is needed.

I was using so call dead rock because they are not dead....the rock is still full of bacteria and micro-organism and it would be a waste to simply thrown them into trash or ripe them of all life. And I can tell you that there are pieces of frag growing back from the dead rock...I will try take a photo tonight to prove it.
 
I agree that there's no sound reason to have zero reading for either PO4 or NO3. However properly metered, I don't see an issue with this experiment. We add all sorts of "pollutants" to the water column in an effort to control others. GAC can be detrimental if used improperly. I just think he would be better off using a pure nitrate source, but he claims it's not available. However I'll be willing to bet food grade sodium nitrate is available in Hong Kong.

The other stuff you added was unnecessary. From the pic he provided, he/she looks like they know how to manage a tank with some measure of success.

Thank you. The information on nitrate was provided by the chemical shop which I used to purchase all the calcium/magnesium/carbonate I need. Probably I can get it somewhere but I don't have time to do a throughout search.

You said "other stuff" which I am confused. Apart from ammonia I am currently only adding sodium carbonate to keep up the KH demand but nothing else. Are you referring to the ATS and biopellets? They seem necessary to me at this stage since they are the "factories" where the algae and bacterium work their way.
 
Thank you. The information on nitrate was provided by the chemical shop which I used to purchase all the calcium/magnesium/carbonate I need. Probably I can get it somewhere but I don't have time to do a throughout search.

You said "other stuff" which I am confused. Apart from ammonia I am currently only adding sodium carbonate to keep up the KH demand but nothing else. Are you referring to the ATS and biopellets? They seem necessary to me at this stage since they are the "factories" where the algae and bacterium work their way.
The "other stuff" was addressed to the other poster. He went off topic with superfluous commentary. He was pontificating and chastising you when it wasn't warranted or appropriate. JMO of course.

You're trying something to resolve what you believe to be an issue for your system. You're doing it responsibly and with some measure of science. People made the same snide remarks about dosing Vodka and or vinegar a few years ago. I think I remember the "salad" comments.

People are dosing lanthanum chloride and all sorts of stuff that can be considered "poison" by general standards. I say go for it. Observe and record and then draw a conclusion. Good luck!
 
neo,
I have to call you on this one. The poisoning I am referring to is indeed ammonia. When a fish is shipped in half a cup of even 1 cup of water they are poisoned by their own waste. Which is ammonia. This destroys their internal organs, or damages them beyond the animals capability to heal themselves. They then get secondary infections which finish them off!
The 1/6400 is as you can see detrimental to your fish. Evidenced by stressing them out! If your going to try and manipulate the system in this way, at least do it very slowing. A slow metered drip would be the safest.
Why rush it? Why not let the system balance out by itself. It will eventually if you have patience. If the parameters are not correct, it's not ready.
Your telling me free phosphate in the system has no effect on corals and fish????? Well then why do high phosphate levels impede coral growth?
I have stripped nitrates and phosphates down to zero years ago multiple times. And let me tell you, its a real PITA to find a balance after that. Usually consistent feeding throughout the day and shutting skimmers off for sometimes half the day.
So the live rock was not dead? Was it dried out at all? You claimed a huge failure 2 years ago. Then you just recently set up a new tank. So where was the rock for 2 years?? In a holding tank? Dried out part of the time?
Im just trying to understand what you are saying. I just hope you do not start a big fat round of Ich in your tank and kill alot of the fish is all.
A Parrot fish will eat your coral my friend. They are coral eaters as well as algae. As far as I know, rock has very little protein and nutrients. They may use the crushed coral to aid in digestion and teeth maintenance.
I think your tank looks good right now! Build on it slowly. I really like NoPox from RedSea. The product works excellent and is very affordable. It too is highly recommended to does the measured amounts throughout the day.
 
blk,
He asked for opinions. I gave him mine. It was not a beat down, but you are entitled to your own opinions.................as I am entitled to mine.
Nopox is highly toxic as well, but if dosed correctly and slowly it has no effect on the animals. Dilution is key. He could even add his amount to a gallon of tank water, then add that slowly
It makes no sense to me to try to get zero phosphate readings. He's stripping the system of everything, then its a see/saw battle and alot of work.....
 
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