Experiment - Dosing Ammonia

Actually, regenerating GFO in this manner is remarkably easy and relatively safe. Not sure about Hong Kong, but in the US one makes sodium hydroxide solutions by purchasing lye sold as a drain cleaner. It's very cheap, and it doesn't fume when dissolved in water. One does need to wear some dishwashing-type gloves to keep the lye solution off of your hands, but other than that it's not hazardous.

Since it's drain cleaner and won't harm pipes, one simply pours off the lye solution into the sink and flushes it with a bit of water from the tap.

The 0.01N HCl solution isn't actually required, it's more of a convenience to get the remaining NaOH completely neutralized in the GFO before drying. But you can accomplish the same thing with vinegar, or just RODI water, though more rinses are required if you use just RODI.

Well, NaOH is normally sold in anhydrous form in Hong Kong and we have to make up the solution ourselves. It is readily available, but I am really not good at these kind of chemical work. Also, I don't know how to handle those fine GFO particles which always goes into the tank...but I may try when I have the time.

My experiment so far has been satisfactory. While I am still in the middle of it, the benefits observed so far is so encouraging that that I am thinking of adopting the practice as long term measure. I knew I need to be extremely careful as the long term effect of ammonia can be devastating, but I am starting to wonder that ammonia have a biological role to coral that we have no knowledge and that it is not as simply as a food to bacteria and algae.

I am thinking of buying a macro lens and hope to get some better pictures this weekend.
 
The problem is that the test kit only gives you a single reading of the actual concentration of a substance in the water (which can sometimes be useful) but they do not give an indication of the flux of that substance through the system. The claim is not that there is more phosphate in the water column (like you say, it's either there or it isn't), but that the total amount of phosphate moving through the system (the flux) is higher than expected. Consider the following scenario. A tank is heavily fed daily, a skimmer or GFO is not used and little algae growth is observed. In that case you would expect the phosphate levels to be high because the input is high but the output (algae, skimmer, GFO) is low. This low output means the flux is low, so phosphate is allowed to build up. These might be conditions observed immediately before an algae bloom. Take the same system a week later and nothing is different except that there is now a large algae biomass because the high phosphate levels triggered a bloom. That algae is now drawing down all that phosphate. The test kit now reads low phosphate. But the tank is still fed heavily. The phosphate input is still high, but now the output is high too, so the flux is now high. Both of these systems have the same amount of phosphate going in, but one reads high phosphate and the other reads low phosphate.

If you looked only at the second system without any knowledge of the first, and tested the water for phosphate, and found it to be low, you might dismiss phosphate as the problem. That's because the reading is low but the concentration of phosphate in the water does not give you any idea what the flux of phosphate through the system is. However, the observation that algae growth is high indicates that the flux of nutrients through the system is also high.
I really think the simple answer is the ability to accurately measure the concentration of PO4 isn't adequate with hobby test kits. So even a zero reading of the water column could really be higher and still remain within the accuracy range of the test.

I had only been using the normal range Hanna meter 713 and always had a zero reading. Finally purchasing the ULR meter, the water tested for .12ppm. The 713 meter was accurate within it's designed range. So zero was reasonable for that test.

Phosphates have always been my bugaboo. I've been dosing NaNO3 coupled with carbon dosing and bringing that phosphate number down. Only way I can see doing it. Used some GFO, but it never really brought the number down below .08ppm. With the NaNO3 dosing I'm slowly reaching .06ppm and aiming for .04. There's a DSB in the display and NO3 gets consumed readily so the additions I'm making don't really concern me.
 
Well, NaOH is normally sold in anhydrous form in Hong Kong and we have to make up the solution ourselves. It is readily available, but I am really not good at these kind of chemical work. Also, I don't know how to handle those fine GFO particles which always goes into the tank...but I may try when I have the time.

My experiment so far has been satisfactory. While I am still in the middle of it, the benefits observed so far is so encouraging that that I am thinking of adopting the practice as long term measure. I knew I need to be extremely careful as the long term effect of ammonia can be devastating, but I am starting to wonder that ammonia have a biological role to coral that we have no knowledge and that it is not as simply as a food to bacteria and algae.

I am thinking of buying a macro lens and hope to get some better pictures this weekend.

I know I've read that at least pocillioporids are capable of utilizing dissolved ammonia as a nitrogen source. I'm not sure how many others may be able to as well.
 
I have used ammonia before for cycling a tank without fish, many years ago for fresh water. Calculate how much ammonia you need to create 1ppm, wait a few days then dose .05-.1 ppm every few days till you get zero on ammonia and nitrite and nitrate begins to rise. Raise the temp to 82 degrees and you can cycle a tank in less than two weeks with no harm to fish. For your use of reducing phosphates, I use potassium nitrate from time to time, at about a 1ppm dose to remove excess phosphate. I don't think the levels your adding would be harmful but if the fish react maybe try mixing the half daily dose with a few cups of water in a plastic bag with a pinhole to slow drip it into the system, preferably before the refugium if you have one. When you get phosphate down to where you want it, I would cut the ammonia dose by at least half if not 1/4. And retest for a few weeks.

Another thing I have done is utilize phosphate to reduce nitrate when carbon dosing. I had a high nitrate reading in my reef years ago and used baking powder to raise phosphate levels .01ppm. Add some vodka sugar or vinegar and watch nitrates drop. The first time I did this I used too much baking powder and carbon and nitrates dropped about 10ppm a day. These days I just turn off the phosphate reactor and add a decent pinch of sugar.
 
Well, NaOH is normally sold in anhydrous form in Hong Kong and we have to make up the solution ourselves. It is readily available, but I am really not good at these kind of chemical work. Also, I don't know how to handle those fine GFO particles which always goes into the tank...but I may try when I have the time.

My experiment so far has been satisfactory. While I am still in the middle of it, the benefits observed so far is so encouraging that that I am thinking of adopting the practice as long term measure. I knew I need to be extremely careful as the long term effect of ammonia can be devastating, but I am starting to wonder that ammonia have a biological role to coral that we have no knowledge and that it is not as simply as a food to bacteria and algae.

I am thinking of buying a macro lens and hope to get some better pictures this weekend.

Yep, that's the way NaOH is sold in the US - labeled as "lye". Making an approximately 1M solution of this is easy - you need 40 grams of solid NaOH per liter of RODI. This is approximately 31 mLs of solid NaOH by volume, or approximately two tablespoons per liter. The only precaution you need to take is to wear rubber gloves (the kind used for dishwashing are suitable), because the solution is corrosive to your skin. But it doesn't generate fumes, so it can be done indoors.

As to eliminating the GFO particles from getting into your tank, if you run it in a reactor all you need to do is put the GFO in the reactor, attach a tube to the outlet, start the flow to the reactor, and catch the effluent from the tube into a separate bucket. Within a gallon or so of water pumped through the reactor, all of the small particles will be in the bucket.
 
Update on 11 Jan 2014

Update on 11 Jan 2014

The Eighth week of my experiment has pasted and here is another update. Things still evolving, and again I am not sure why and how they occurred. I have however decided to reduce the dosage which I will explain later.

  • PO4 on average reads 0.01ppm....very well to me;
  • On the other hand, NO3 starts to appear and the latest reading using Salifert kit is 5ppm. AS I have reached my PO4 target I have starting this morning to reduce the dosage by half, i.e. now only 1.5ml of 5% ammonia hydroxide is added twice every day.
  • Skimmer appears to be pulling darker and darker stuff and smell horribly.
  • Ca, KH and PH all remain stable.
  • Coral continues to colour up and I am so glad to see more and more glowing tips are visible.
  • Unfortunately, red slim reappears, and they come back quickly. I am cleaning it as soon as I notice any patches.
  • Clams seem to be the most happy one and they are showing magnificent glow in the past 4 weeks...
  • Iches on fished is no worst, but no better. Keep my finger crossed...
  • Vermetid snails still a headache and I am now trying to crush their shells with forceps.... my clever wrasses now learn to circle around and see it they can get the meal once the snails are cracked open.

I am also very grateful for every bodies' advice given so far, and I am looking forward to posting some pictures soon. Got the macro extension tubes but I am not yet able to fully master it.
 
Some photos

Some photos

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And FTS

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Really good to see some positive results when someone tries something considered out of the box, but done responsibly. Proves there's more than one way to skin a cat. And for me, it shows that understanding what's going into the tank in measures is a better way than adding things that cannot be measured such as pelletized media or GFO. The absorption rates cannot be measured or controlled with any certainty. We just hope we have the proper amount for our tanks with the proper flow. Very difficult in many cases, to determine. It appears to be mostly trial and error. Oh an more expensive too :)
 
meshwheel,

You are the only one I ever met who believes a phosphate level of 0.04 ppm is acceptable....

As for ammonia, I shared your concern but if my calculation is correct I was only increasing 0.00025 ppm of ammonia everyday, which is way less than the toxic levels of all references I came across. And since no nitrate is building up I am confident that all ammonia had been consumed everyday. That said, I would not increase the dose further since fishes seem to need time to adjust.


I dont measure phosphate specifically. i don't feel the need to concern myself with it as long as everything else stays in balance. But i do agree that if I DID measure and it read .04 ppm I would not be concerned at all.
BTW I dont agree that adding what basically amounts to a dose of poision everyday can yield any good results in the long run. JMO
 
I dont measure phosphate specifically. i don't feel the need to concern myself with it as long as everything else stays in balance. But i do agree that if I DID measure and it read .04 ppm I would not be concerned at all.
BTW I dont agree that adding what basically amounts to a dose of poision everyday can yield any good results in the long run. JMO

Yes, it is a matter of prospective and opinion to what you would do to yourselves. I would rather prefer to take a little risk for a healthier environment to live in, but there are also people who prefer a comfortable and polluted environment. JMHO.
 
I dont measure phosphate specifically. i don't feel the need to concern myself with it as long as everything else stays in balance. But i do agree that if I DID measure and it read .04 ppm I would not be concerned at all.
BTW I dont agree that adding what basically amounts to a dose of poision everyday can yield any good results in the long run. JMO
You do realize that ammonia is produced 24/7 in your tank as well as every tank as well as in all the oceans of the world …………………………….don't you? Are the fish poisoning your tank or are they contributing to the nitrogen cycle? :rolleyes:
 
I'm really enjoying the experiment and thank you for the updates. This seems safer IMO than Lanthanum dosing which I've been doing for about 6-8 months.

Just to summarize and see if I have everything correct...

Your water volume is 330 Gallons and you are adding 5% ammonia.
1ml, twice/day for 14 days. (total of 2ml/day)
2ml, twice/day for 14 days. (total of 4ml/day)
3ml, twice/day for 14 days. (total of 6ml/day)

now you are cutting the dose in half to:
1.5ml, twice/day (total of 3ml per day)

Is this correct?
 
I'm really enjoying the experiment and thank you for the updates. This seems safer IMO than Lanthanum dosing which I've been doing for about 6-8 months.

Just to summarize and see if I have everything correct...

Your water volume is 330 Gallons and you are adding 5% ammonia.
1ml, twice/day for 14 days. (total of 2ml/day)
2ml, twice/day for 14 days. (total of 4ml/day)
3ml, twice/day for 14 days. (total of 6ml/day)

now you are cutting the dose in half to:
1.5ml, twice/day (total of 3ml per day)

Is this correct?

Well, my tank is 330G in capacity but I suppose the water volume is around 60% - 70% of the tank volume only, i.e. around 200g - 230G. Other space are occupied by rocks and sands.

You have made an accurate summary of my dosing. But I would advise you to be very careful since ammonia overdose can INSTANTLY kill all your inhabitants whereas you still have time to work out a solution to Lanthanum overdose. And if you have access to Potassium (or other) Nitrate, try Nitrate first which is safer. There is another excellent thread on dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphates.

For your initial information after I cut the ammonia dosage PO4 seems to raise again. I seems to have feed too much....:headwally:
 
Well, my tank is 330G in capacity but I suppose the water volume is around 60% - 70% of the tank volume only, i.e. around 200g - 230G. Other space are occupied by rocks and sands.

You have made an accurate summary of my dosing. But I would advise you to be very careful since ammonia overdose can INSTANTLY kill all your inhabitants whereas you still have time to work out a solution to Lanthanum overdose. And if you have access to Potassium (or other) Nitrate, try Nitrate first which is safer. There is another excellent thread on dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphates.

For your initial information after I cut the ammonia dosage PO4 seems to raise again. I seems to have feed too much....:headwally:

Exactly the clarification I was looking for. I am trying to calculate your ammonia level increase per dose. So I was unsure if your volume was 330G or the tank size was 330G. I know the dangers in ammona levels, so I want to calculate everything out before I make a decision.

Thanks!
 
Exactly the clarification I was looking for. I am trying to calculate your ammonia level increase per dose. So I was unsure if your volume was 330G or the tank size was 330G. I know the dangers in ammona levels, so I want to calculate everything out before I make a decision.

Thanks!

Glad to be helpful but I still advise you to be careful. And given that I add so little but still have such a noticeable result, it is clear that ammonia is very potent stuff and better start with less than more.
 
Can I ask why you decided to start ammonia dosing instead of something more conventional like vinegar/vodka? don't they basically do the same thing?

EDIT: nevermind... I answered my own question by reading through the Nitrate dosing thread.
 
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Can I ask why you decided to start ammonia dosing instead of something more conventional like vinegar/vodka? don't they basically do the same thing?

The purposes of dosing carbon (vinegar/vodka/sugar/biopellets) and nitrogen (nitrates/ammonia) are the same; by providing what is not enough for the bacteria/algae so that they can proliferate and eat up the excess phosphates. The point is you have to first determine what is in short in the tank.

For my case, I have been running VSV and biopellets for some time but phosphate is still high. Since carbon is clearly not the limiting factor, the next candidate should be nitrogen and I chose ammonia as the nitrogen source. It is risky, but I got results to my, well, acceptance.

Another summary will be available tomorrow.
 
18 Jan Update

18 Jan Update

An update as promised.

As mentioned last week, I have reduced the dose to 1.5ml twice everyday since PO4 seems to be in check. This week, however, the PO4 bounded back to around 0.04ppm and at the same time NO3 also read 2ppm. Other physical parameters are more or less the same as last time, and so far the tank inhabitants are still fine. Some changes are noticeable though:

  • The algae growth on ATS reduced but algae on rock seems to be on increasing.
  • Fishes are spending more time on grazing. Even my Emperor Angel who shown little grazing in the past starts piking at the undersides of rocks frequently. I have not reduce the feeding.
  • Ich on tangs are getting more serious. Although other fishes still seems fine, I start treatment with Kick Ich which seems to work well. Let see what will happen.
  • On the other hand coral are thriving! They show improving colour and I even found some tiny bits growing on some supposedly dead branches!


I knew I am at a cross road but I have decided to maintain my current ammonia dosing. I am taking a great risk to my fishes, but I will try best to win against ich.

Will keep reporting.
 
There's some very good information about eliminating ich from your system on the disease forum, it's worth reading.

Thank you for your suggestion. But from what I read so far, the only guaranteed method to cure ich is copper, which is not "usable" in reef tank. Others methods/medicines/commercial products are all hit and miss. So, I am on my own and I have to reply on what worked for me in the past.

Many thanks again.
 
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