Experiment - Dosing Ammonia

[miatawnt2b]

your ich problem isn't caused by the ammonia, and i also doubt it's aggrevated by the ammonia either.

That said, I've had good luck soaking food in garlic and ginger. No scientific proof, but it seems to have helped several of my fishies in the past.
-J

 

[dkeller_nc]

Thank you for your suggestion. But from what I read so far, the only guaranteed method to cure ich is copper, which is not "usable" in reef tank. Others methods/medicines/commercial products are all hit and miss. So, I am on my own and I have to reply on what worked for me in the past.

Many thanks again.

Actually, there are 3 proven methods that are 100% effective on ich:

1) Copper treatment, typically cupramine.
2) Hyposalinity. There are reports that there are some rare strains of ich that will survive 1.009 hypo, but they are very rare.
3) Tank Transfer.

Apparently, most fish will develop an immunity to a particular strain of ich if they survive a couple of parasitic cycles. That's why all sorts of other remedies like malachite green (KickIch), garlic supplementation, etc... seem to work - the fish simply develop immunity.

The problem with relying on immunity is that some of your fish may not survive, and any new fish you put into the tank is likely to come down with an active infection.

 

[brandon429]

as I read this thread I have a question thats sort of a summary as well

why is adding the raw ammonia any different than adding more fish to the tank> does that mean by the read of this thread, that increasing fish bioload would strip more phosphate>? Im seeing a good post of a nice tank etc, but no control of variables to pinpoint much. not being trite just wondering if we are of the concensus that increasing ammonia output in a reef tank will lower the phophate measures in the water?

Im curious about the rocks leaching phosphate, how has that been addressed

 

[brandon429]

it also may have been mentioned, but does it seem logical that using a less destructive form of N would allow you to get more bacteria for eventual export? if N was the end goal, why is using ammonia to provide it more beneficial than vodka is my question

i wouldnt negate anyones experiment especially going off the pics but its interesting details that intrigue me

 

[Bilk]

it also may have been mentioned, but does it seem logical that using a less destructive form of N would allow you to get more bacteria for eventual export? if N was the end goal, why is using ammonia to provide it more beneficial than vodka is my question

i wouldnt negate anyones experiment especially going off the pics but its interesting details that intrigue me

It seems that in Hong Kong, where the OP is from, obtaining a nitrate source is a bit difficult because of regulation controls. I believe that was mentioned earlier in the thread. Vodka or any carbon source, is not a source for nitrate and will not effectively work if one of the factors is limiting - in this case nitrate is the limiting factor for growing bacteria to utilize the PO4 to be exported. This seems to be what motivated the OP to utilize NH3. Adding more fish to a tank that has an active cryptocaryon event probably isn't the better course of action.

The OP appears to be addressing the system issues in a reasonably controlled and monitored manner and getting measured results. It's not a mainstream methodology, but this is the advanced topic forum after all. Maybe his reporting of the results can shed some light on the issue of PO4 export. JMO.

 

[brandon429]

good summary. so without the crypto the extra fish would work basically towards the same ends? I was thinking he wanted phosphate free sources of addition, where the fish waste would have some due to feed incorporation.

 

[sh0ck]

More fish = more feeding = more PO4
Most of the time you are not feeding according to PO4 amount in foods, but based on fish taste and budget.

 

[Bilk]

More fish = more feeding = more PO4
Most of the time you are not feeding according to PO4 amount in foods, but based on fish taste and budget.

That's probably the conundrum we all face. Adding more fish requires more input of food to maintain the fish population. You get more of everything - NH3, NO3, PO4. If one aspect is out of balance then carbon dosing doesn't work as well. It's why GFO looked like such an attractive option - until the costs are considered. Then there's the idea of dialing it in - flow and the amount of the binder that needs to be in the canister or where ever the media is deployed, becomes somewhat problematic. Not impossible to manage, but it's less direct in so far as measuring and controlling. Dosing looks like a better option from my perspective as there's somewhat more control over that. Now what to dose is the real question

 

[neoyhng]

All of a sudden so many replies....

First of all, I am sorry to let you know that while the medicine (Kick ICH) seems working and ich starts to disappear, it also messed up the experiment and after just one dose PO4 raised to 0.15ppm. I read the label and it said nothing about containing PO4, but there is a curious line: "absorbent media should be removed (phosphate absorbents are OK)". That said something.....

Adding fishes to the tank, while sounds good, is not an option since fishes will produce more wastes than it can intake. Also you have no control of the composition of what is produced by the fishes and you cannot just take the fishes out and thrown it away like bacteria/algae......

As I mentioned in previous posts, I would like to use nitrate instead of ammonia but I cannot get pure nitrate in Hong Kong without a license... That said, I am not regretted since the results of using ammonia seems to be much more profound than using nitrate (as reported in another post in this forum).

For now, I would continue the current ammonia dose for the time being, and hope it could help to keep the PO4 load in check. I will keep monitoring and see if I can get a balance in the end...

Thank you for all your advice.

 

[vitz]

kick ich is a sham, like all of the other ich 'meds' that aren't copper, hypo, or tank transfer. it's about as effective and verifiable as ginger or garlic

 

[neoyhng]

possibly the final update

possibly the final update

It has been awhile since my last update. The lack of discussion made me think that it might not be a topic of general interest. That said, I think I should bring a conclusion to this thread.

While battling ICH I have been continued dosing 1.5ml 5% ammonia twice everyday and I am glad to report that none of the fishes die due to ICH, though I lost one wrasse due to "jumping out". I also lost two colonies of Acro, but they were both weak before the experiment. There is no other casualties that I can observed.

Other than the above, the tank looks great! SPS and clams show significant improvement in colour and growth, with better SPS polyp expansion. Algae and Cyanobacteria are also receding slowly and steadily. Even the fishes are seemingly more active. The effects overall is very encouraging.

Since the ICH med I use seems to messed up with the PO4 test kit I stop measuring PO4 level for a while. I believe, judging from the observation, it should be pretty low but not yet to the point of starving. NO3 is undetectable over the whole period.

While I don't encourage anyone to follow my step, I am very happy with the result I achieved and I will continue to dose a low level of ammonia. I am planning to setup a dosing pump so as to control the dosing more precisely.

I am very poor at photography, but I will try take some photos this weekend and post them here

 

[Bilk]

neoyhng you chose a method and executed it with care. You took the time to report your observations and measurements here. I look forward to seeing some pics of your tank and happy to know you feel things are improving.

 

[neoyhng]

Photos comparison

Photos comparison

As promised, here are some comparison photos of my SPS before and after the experiment. The focus might not be the same but I hope you can see the difference. The photo on the left is the old one.

The last one, with the most magnificent change

 

[swcc]

adding pollutants to combat other pollutants... well...??? sorry i chuckle at the idea...