extracting copper from live rock

[dgunn]

I recently met a gentleman who was advised by a LFS owner to treat his ich problem with copper. Shortly after adding the copper everything in the tank died with the exception of the fish.

The sad part about this is the LFS sold him the entire system and helped him set it up. It is a very nice system that cost about 4 grand but will not support a reef anymore.

I've offered to help him restart the system but my question is; has anyone ever had any success with removing copper from live rock? Is cooking the rock or something along this line an option? And is it ok to reuse the tank, sump etc?

According to this friend the system tests zero for copper at this time. But he tells me that he has tried to add snails and had them die right away. Is copper harmful to all inverts?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. BTW the LFS went out of business shortly after giving him the copper.

 

[JmLee]

yes copper is harmeful to any invert. Alot of the time the copper will absorb into substrate and rock. I dont know how accurate copper test kits are, and i have never heard of " extracting " copper from anything once its bonded. I may be wrong though so some one else will chime in. Good luck!

 

[affan]

Well, obviously the rock has absorbed copper --and like JmLee said, copper is extremely harmful to all inverts-- and the copper is now acting like a film on top of the rock and keeping anything from growing on it. You can cook the rock, and cook it for a very very long time. Even then, the only sure way, I think, to tell if the copper has been removed is by placing it in saltwater to see if anything grows on it. Replacing the rock entirely would be the route I would go.

 

[Danfish]

I've been told that once you use copper in a tank, that tank is dead to inverts.
Not just the rock, but the glass and plumbing and everything will continue to leech copper into the water. I don't know how accurate it is, but they said its pretty much impossible to dillute it enough to make it safe.


I would tell him to go to the fish store and chew some heads.
Its VERY irresponsible on thier part to send him home with that idea w/o asking if he had anything other than fish in the tank.

Also tell him to COMPLETELY read the bottles next time before he puts ANYTHING into the tank. I bet you money it will say on the bottle that its not safe/harmfull for invertibrates. If not, then you have someone else to yell at.

 

[JmLee]

danfish, the store went out of business... read that last sentence.

 

[Danfish]

Ahh, reading FTW.
Super sucky then, no one to yell at.

I wonder if there is some chemical that can be used to bond with and precipitate out the copper. Would think if there was a common thing as such, then you'd hear about it more often in the trade.

 

[reefshadow]

you could try prolonged cooking as mentioned, does polyfilter remove copper?

 

[migston]

Take a look at this article by Randy Holmes-Farley. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/chem.htm

It seems to imply that Kalk makes copper precipitate if it's in solution. I wonder if this might be something to look into? Like say cooking the rock in a supersaturated kalk mixture?

I'm far from being a chemist though so I have no clue what effect it will have but maybe you can experiment and have a breakthrough? LOL You've got nothing to lose anyway right?

 

[dgunn]

Thanks guys for all the replies....

Yes the LFS did close its doors shortly after nuking this guy's tank. And they were aware of the inhabitants as they sold him everything and even came to his house and set it all up!!

I think that they were tired of him pestering them about his ich problem and knew that they would shortly be out of buisness so, oh well?

I appreciate all of your great responses....

Migston, thanks for the link, an intersting article and does apply to what I would like to do. But I think that Randy's reason for writing that was to remove copper from kalkwasser before dosing in a tank.
I am concerned about all the pores in the rock as to how well the kalkwasser would react. That is why cooking for a long time makes sense.

affan, thanks for the suggestion of adding livestock to see if it would survive. I could set up a tank with the rock, some calcium carbonate substrate as Randy suggested in his article, and add some caulerpa, snails, hermits and lighting after I was done cooking just to see if anything would survive!

I don't think that this owner will patiently wait for the rock to cook however so it does look as though the only option is to put in new rock.

Danfish, as for the tank, sump, plumbing etc., I did consult with the owner of a new LFS, Sedar from Phishy Buisness and he said that the tank should be ok but that I should continue to run a large amount of carbon once the tank is set back up.

reefshadow thanks for the idea of polyfilter, that would be another great measure.

I wonder what is the best method for cleaning the sides of the tank and sump before restarting?

"Super sucky then, no one to yell at. "
Danfish, I am kinda doing that here, although I don't think that the former owner will read this.

 

[pecan2phat]

Have also read where keeping a bag of Cuprisorb running is a good idea. This media will change color as copper is absorbed.

 

[smorrow5773]

Just a thought...the rock will start to slowly dissolve at lower ph, maybe 7.2? Cook the rock in lower ph water and at least the outside surface will release any copper and you could use polyfilter to see if it turns blue.

 

[Danfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7551273#post7551273 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dgunn
Thanks guys for all the replies....


Danfish, as for the tank, sump, plumbing etc., I did consult with the owner of a new LFS, Sedar from Phishy Buisness and he said that the tank should be ok but that I should continue to run a large amount of carbon once the tank is set back up.

I don't want to try and scare you away from someone you trust or anything, but I have VERY strong feelings about Phishy Buisness in Orlando FL.

That was the original store that set my tank up and got me going about 3 years ago.

They told me to use florida tap water, which is totaly horrible.
They sold me 7 damsels to cycle the tank with.
They sent me home with $500 worth of fake decorations and never once mentioned live rock.
They kept trying to sell me stuff every time I walked in, insisting to test my water for me, basicly kept me in the dark as to what was going on inside my tank.


I know they have pretty livestock, but they totaly screwed me over when I had no clue what I was doing. Really saw us coming a mile away.

Just fair warning.
I almost gave up the hobby because of the total algae infested piece of trash my tank became because of them. (tore it down and forgot about it for 2 years, wasn't untill I moved and got a new house that I gave it a second chance)

 

[rustybucket145]

Polypads absorb copper. Not quite sure how well they would work in this application. Just thought I would throw out the idea. Bummer on the tank.

 

[JmLee]

imo there is no sure fire solution besides getting all new substrate and Liverock. Even then i would run polypads for a few weeks like rustybucket suggested. Good luck!.

 

[dgunn]

smorrow, I can't have low pH and cook the rock in kalkwasser. But your suggestion may be better although I would think that it would take a long time to dissolve large rocks.

Danfish, your story seems similar to my friends, but the Phishy Buisness that I was referring to is in Columbus, Ohio... they are a sponser here on RC and have been selling on the net for a long time.
Its a good thing that we have a resouce like RC to turn to for good solid advice and not have to rely only on local fish stores.

thanks pecan for the suggestion of cuprisorb... with all the good advice that I'm getting this sounds as though it is workable.

Anyone have any advice on some cheap inverts that I could test the finished product on? Do blue leg hermits and maybe astrea snails seem like they would be sensitive enough? I can pick them up locally for a buck apiece.

 

[Danfish]

I don't know why I read your location as "central orlando".
HAHAHA

Less beer, more sleep.
GL guys.

 

[pecan2phat]

Definitely start out with snails and hermits. If cooper is continually leaching from the substrate and rock, they will "feel it" and well, you know

 

[ddenham]

I would ditch the rock and sand, do a 100% waterchange, run cuprisorb and a polyfilter until I think the copper is out of the glass pores and silicone. I would consider filling the system with fresh RO water and either vinegar or muriatic acid to completely purge the system. Then I'd feel ok about restarting the system. The trouble is, for me, is that if I didn't do ALL I could to get rid of the copper, I would wonder about it every time a snail died.

I wouldn't "test" it out with livestock, either. Even lowly snails and hermits. Thats seems just as bad as cycling with damsels

 

[ddenham]

oh yeah...I bet Randy HF could really help on this one

 

[bryndle0313]

I vote for cooking the rocks (which will then be dead/base rock) in muriatic acid and replace the old substrate..... Worked for me.