Faded colors in my BB reef! (pics included)

[Lobster]

The problem...
My first BB tank is doing great, except any frag I put in my tank fades to a washed out tan color within a week. It doesnt seem to be typical nutrient-related browning -- they are just washed out and seem to lack pigment in the tissue altogether. All frags were bought from good sources. Growth is fantastic... theyre just ugly!

I know I'm supposed to have control over things in a BB tank, and that is holding true except for this color issue. I'm really trying to decide if I like BB here before I setup a much larger tank, so hopefully someone smarter than me and steer me in the right direction!

My parameters...
The tank is 50G total volume. Alk is 3.5meq/L and 420ppm Ca, maintained via 1/4 tsp. pickling lime dosed during the night. Temp ranges 79-82F. pH is 7.9-8.1. Phosphate never registers (using Salifert). Nitrate never registers (but see below).

Skimmer is a Deltec APF600. Lights are 150W 10K Reeflux run 3 hours a day and PC actinics run 10 hours a day. Flow is a bit over 2000GPH (~65x) with some randomness from a wavemaker. I run carbon changed monthly. Five gallon water changes are done weekly using Instant Ocean. I run a filter sock a few days out of the week to keep my sump clean. All of my live rock is on racks and a powerhead keeps detritus from settling. The rock was cooked for seven months per SeanT's instructions.

Things I've already tried...
I was told I had too much light for a BB tank, so I shortened the photoperiod from eight hours to three. Someone said I was starving the tank, so I added fish so I could feed them. Also started feeding 5-100 micron golden pearls. No effect, so I added more fish -- still no color yet! Right now I am feeding very heavily in an attempt to get nutrients into the tank. Even with all I feed, the highest I can get my nitrate to is 0.5ppm and algae growth is not effected.

Possible causes...

• Overskimming? Maybe I'm stripping all the good stuff out? Should I try running skimmer 12 hours on, 12 off?
• Potassium shortage? Maybe, but I doubt its the real culprit. I did order a KZ potassium test kit though, so we'll see...
• Low flow? Maybe 2000GPH is still not enough, but my coral polyps are swaying back and forth. I've had worse flow in other tanks and had much better color, so I'm not convinced. BUT... just to prove I'm a good sport I ordered a Tunze TS24 kit (2x6100 streams and a 7095 controller). Won't be any flow questions after these go in.
• Low light? Maybe 150W just isnt enough to do the trick. I doubt this though... I should at least have SOME color I would think.

Here are pictures to show what I am talking about...

First up, this millepora frag. As you can see, not really browned out like zoox buildup, its just faded and drab:

Anything green seems especially prone to fade to tan. Look how sad! This frag also grows very slowly, which I'm sure you'll agree is odd for a digi...

Growing like mad, but won't color up...

I'm pulling my hair out here, so I hope someone can help. Sorry I've been hijacking threads about this... finally started my own since I can't get it fixed.

Thanks!

 

[Cody Ray]

Do u have 1 or 2 150 watt bulbs over the 50 gallon?

 

[Ramble On Rose]

Wow, those shots could have come from my tank. I had/have very similar problems but a DSB tank with fuge etc.. I found that I had red bugs about a month ago and things have been improving some what since I got rid of them, but I am still pretty much facing the same thing. One thing that I would like to try that maybe you have access to is a digital phosphate meter. I have heard that even Saliferts is not accurate enough and that people (there was recently a group order in the reef club in my area so there was lots of feedback) were getting higher readings then expected with the digital meter when the salifert was reading 0. Other then that, I hope someone has some ideas, cause I will be tagging along. Good luck.

 

[ERICinFL]

Might try a longer MH photo period?

 

[Chelsey]

feed the tank and or put some fish in the tank is too clean

 

[wrassie86]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8343869#post8343869 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ERICinFL
Might try a longer MH photo period?

I second that but raise your lights.I would go with a 8 hr peroid but play with how high your lights are.
Ive been in the same place as you.i still have a slight problem with greens but blues are great.as i raise the lights the greens are getting better.

 

[h20cooled]

More fish and food for the fish...

 

[Lobster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8343822#post8343822 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ramble On Rose
I found that I had red bugs about a month ago and things have been improving some what since I got rid of them, but I am still pretty much facing the same thing. One thing that I would like to try that maybe you have access to is a digital phosphate meter.

I was thinking of ordering a PO4 colorimeter, although I'm not sure how helpful that is since PO4 is used up so quickly. Wouldnt high phosphate spur excess zoox? It doesnt look like typical zoox browning... look at the "green" digi... surely there's no excess zoox in that guy, huh? Plus I don't have much nuissance algae and overall coral growth is good, so I'm kinda thinking its not phosphate. I do have a phosban reactor and some phosban on order though, just to make sure.

There's no red bugs, I'm good at spotting those (spotted them in a LFS tank last weekend).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8344673#post8344673 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wrassie86
I second that but raise your lights.I would go with a 8 hr peroid but play with how high your lights are. Ive been in the same place as you.i still have a slight problem with greens but blues are great.as i raise the lights the greens are getting better.

I was running them eight hours for months and still had the problem. Actually it was even worse. I've been told over and over that long photoperiods are bad with a BB tank. Unfortunately, I can't raise the lights, they are in a fixture with legs that sits on the top. I will try moving a couple of frags into more indirect light though, which should have the exact same effect. If I see a change then I'll figure out some way to change the lighting.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8344807#post8344807 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by h20cooled
More fish and food for the fish...

I'm afraid to even say how many fish I have in there now! I've slowly ramped up to one small yellow tang, two clowns, a chalk bass, and three bartlett's anthias!! I can't get any more fish in there. I'm feeding a whole cube of mysis, a whole cube of brine, a half cube of cyclopeeze, a half cube of formula2, a 1/8th sheet or nori, and half a salifert spoon of golden pearls of sizes 5-100 microns. Daily. That's an awful lot of food in a 30G display I think.

Maybe I am just cursed. I'm going to call Ms. Cleo.

 

[Serioussnaps]

---I would drip the kalk 24/7..provides stability throughout a whole day rather than spiking things all at night.

---its not due to phosphate..i can tell you that so dont drop dough on the meter

---i think you need to raise your Kelvin temp...10K is yellow for me...i would get some 14 K's.....or switch one bulb to a 20K and get some new peices under the 20's and see what they do!!

----YOU HAVE TONS OF NUTRIENTS IN YOUR TANK WITH THAT FISH LOAD....THEY ARENT TESTING BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING EXPORTED SO EFFICIENTLY VIA YOUR BB PHILOSOPHY...I WOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER DROPPING SOME OF THOSE FISH OFF TO OTHER HOBBYISTS OR LFS THAT HAS LARGER TANKS......I WOULD DUMP THE TANG AND THE ANTHIAS(I CANT REMEMBER WHAT A CHALK BASS IS)

I HAVE A 55G AND ONLY A PAIR OF PERC'S....I THINK THE BROWING IS DUE TO NUTRIENTS....I ALSO DISAGREE THAT THE BROWNING IS HELPED BY THE FISH POOH AND MORE FEEDING.....I THINK YOU SHOULD GET RID OF SOME OF THOSE FISH...IF NOT FOR THE CORAL COLORATION FOR THE FISH'S BEST INTEREST

---AND YES THAT IS AN AWFUL LOT OF FOOD...AND ITS BECAUSE YOU HAVE 3 ANTHIAS IN A SMALL TANK

 

[wrassie86]

So if your fixture has legs then it is safe to assume that your lights are only a few inches off the water?
its not that running lights 8hrs on a BB system that is bad,Its when those lights are to close frying the corals.
That tan color your getting is most likely a defence color.When i've posted pics of sps that looked liked yours,that is what i was told by a few respected members here.
I'll see about finding that info.

 

[Lobster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8345673#post8345673 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wrassie86
So if your fixture has legs then it is safe to assume that your lights are only a few inches off the water?
its not that running lights 8hrs on a BB system that is bad,Its when those lights are to close frying the corals.
That tan color your getting is most likely a defence color.When i've posted pics of sps that looked liked yours,that is what i was told by a few respected members here.
I'll see about finding that info.

Right, my corals are about 12" away from the light. I read an old thread from 2004 where Bomber was saying to feed heavier and stock more fish than you think you should, and raise the lights and shorten photoperiod... maybe I will run to home depot and find something to just temporarily rest my light fixture on for a few weeks to see what effect it has. It cant hurt, and I feel like I've tried everything else, so why not?

 

[wrassie86]

Bomber is also running 50/50 VHO along with the attinic.So if i remember correct he's using 220w 50/50 -220w attinic.little bit of difference there.
As long as you think your tank is running that clean,then by all means try raising the lights,it has worked for me.here alittle info written by
jdieck

In general I am referring to both. In my experience pale corals are in a defensive mode to excessive light by expelling some of the zooxantelae plus trying to reflect more ilumination. Darker colors absorve radiation a lot more than lighter colors.
When I compare what I have seen diving with what we see in our aquariums, even in very clear and shallow waters of the Caribean everything down there looks blue, much like what we would see with 20K plus actinics.
On top of that seems we try to keep all sps under bright ilumination when there is a big difference between them. Some like the Hydonopora are corals for low light, Montiporas, pocilloporas and dark colored corals like torts or deep greens are medium light corals (175 to 250 watts max) and really the only ones I would say require very high lighting are pink ones like the birdnests and stylophoras.
The trick here is not only to provide the required PAR but also the right ratio to blues and violets being careful not to over do by getting into the UV band.
Bulbs like the AB 10K (Advertized as a 13 to 14K) despite the glass shield have an excessive amount of UV radiation. You will notice with those bulbs that corals will also pale under those conditions so at the end is a combination of Proper PAR, red/green yellow ratio to blue and violate and trying to avoid UV as much as possible.

 

[ERICinFL]

If you can't move your lights up, get some egg crate and screen pieces to put over your tank. Try about 4-5 pieces of screen and see how they do. If they perk up in color, remove a piece of screen every 3-4 days and see if they maintain. They may not be used to your bulbs. I had this problem in my tank, but instead of the screen method, I bought an acrylic shampoo bottle holder with suction cups and started all new frags at the bottom of the tank. Every few days, I'd move the container up until they got to the level I was going to mount them. So far so good. I have a juvi clam and I didn't want to deprive it of light, that's why I chose the shampoo bottle holder over the screen. Good luck.

 

[drock59]

whats your magnesium level?

 

[Lobster]

wrassie86 and eric... thanks for the good info. I built a crappy stand out of PVC pipe to raise my light fixture nine inches. This puts most of my acro frags about 18" from the light.

Hopefully I will see a change one way or another within a couple weeks, because this PVC thing is ugly! If this turns out to be the problem, I'd probably sell the fixture and build a canopy.

Thanks for the quote from jdieck, that is interesting. Do you have a link to the thread that is from?

drock59... my mag level is 1320 according to salifert test, sorry forgot to mention that!

 

[fishdoc11]

IMO it could very well be your lighting. FWIW I ran a smaller BB frag tank with DE 250 watt 20K AB's and never got the color I do in my main tank under SE Ushios that is also BB(in SPS, I got great color in softies). I know some people get good color out of DE's but it seems to be similar to T5's in that you need the right bulbs or color will not be what you want. Just my observation.
hth, Chris

 

[drock59]

I had this exact problem and after about two weeks of HEAVY feeding my corals brightened back up and things have been good since.

What kind of salt? IO? I would try something different. I used it for a long time and made a switch to Oceanpure. Things are much better now.

Back when i was having this issue i changed my photoperiod. I got it down to about 4 hours. Then when color returned I worked my way up to about 7.5 where i am now.

I cant imagine your ligts are too strong.

Maybe change your carbon every week for a month and see what happens. Seems to me that leaving it in for a month is a bad idea.

 

[Waxxiemann]

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but have you tried a remote DSB? I have heard of some people having success restoring SPS color in this manner. Just a thought.

Good luck!

 

[drock59]

That would definitely remotely restore more nutrients.

 

[Lobster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8348369#post8348369 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
IMO it could very well be your lighting. FWIW I ran a smaller BB frag tank with DE 250 watt 20K AB's and never got the color I do in my main tank under SE Ushios that is also BB(in SPS, I got great color in softies). I know some people get good color out of DE's but it seems to be similar to T5's in that you need the right bulbs or color will not be what you want. Just my observation.
hth, Chris

Do you mean DE's just give bad color, or that I need to try a different bulb? I was thinking of trying Phoenix 14Ks instead of the Reeflux 10K, but I just changed bulbs about two weeks ago.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8348408#post8348408 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drock59
I had this exact problem and after about two weeks of HEAVY feeding my corals brightened back up and things have been good since.

What kind of salt? IO? I would try something different. I used it for a long time and made a switch to Oceanpure. Things are much better now.

Back when i was having this issue i changed my photoperiod. I got it down to about 4 hours. Then when color returned I worked my way up to about 7.5 where i am now.

I cant imagine your ligts are too strong.

Maybe change your carbon every week for a month and see what happens. Seems to me that leaving it in for a month is a bad idea.

Well, at the moment I think I'm definitely feeding heavy! I'll keep it up since I don't see any negative effects yet. I just wonder if I am still skimming too strongly.

I've thought of switching from IO. It just seems like so many people get acceptable results from it (including me in the past), I hate to change. I also couldnt decide which salt to change to so I just stuck with IO for now.

Carbon weekly? This is new to me, I always heard monthly... how come?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8348718#post8348718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Waxxiemann
I don't know if this was mentioned before, but have you tried a remote DSB? I have heard of some people having success restoring SPS color in this manner. Just a thought.

I've seen this suggested, yeah. What bothers me is its a black box. I havent seen anybody say why remote DSB works. The idea of barebottom is supposed to be control over parameters, and the minute I add a black box to it, I might as well go back to a DSB (which is inevitable if I dont figure this out).