Feedback on tank dims & overflow 380G

karimwassef · Oct 13, 2012

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/tank1_zps4201f553.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/tank2_zpsdcc0c4b1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/tank3_zps6ee5fac6.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/tank4_zpsf3035eb5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

I believe I've left enough room between the overflow and eurobrace and within the overflow itself to adjust and maintain the 2" elbows connected to the 2" bulkheads, but I would like some indepedent review.

Thanks

CyclistMT · Oct 13, 2012

Yes you will be fine. My overflow is nearly identical. 6" wide with a 4" eurobrace over it but I have even less distance between top of overflow and bottom of brace. I can get 2" elbows in and out with ease.

HOWEVER, you may want to rethink 2" bulkheads with a Beananimal overflow. It definitley depends on your return pump and overall set up but 1.5" is probably enough and will probably make it easier to tune your overflow.

My experience:

I went with 2" plumbing becuase I have encorporated a surge tank in my set up and I knew that had the potential to overwhelm an overflow when it fires. Honestely, when the surge tank fires, 2-2" overflow returns are barely enough. But when it's just the return pump flowing (Waterblaster 10,000) the 2" pipe is too much and it will drain the overflow and surge unless I have the valve on the siphon standpipe nearly closed. It is amazing how much flow this overflow design can handle.

Maybe it's because I used a ball valve instead of a gate valve so I lack that fine control but if it wasn't for my surge, 1.5" bulkheads would have been enough and would have been easier to tune. But then again you're tank is bigger than mine and I don't know what you have planned for a return pump. Just wanted to give you something to think about so you don't run into the same issue I did.

Current music selection: Seasons After-Marked

karimwassef · Oct 13, 2012

That is amazing. That is exactly why I'm using a 2" Bean myself.

I have a dual actuated surge design with 10 gallons each (20gal resevoirs) that are frequency offset to create the potential for sync or non-sync surges!

The reason I left so much room between the overflow lip and the Eurobrace bottom (2.75") is to account for a period when all the surge (20 gallons) will be in the main tank without sufficient drainage and a +1x margin. I basically allow for all the surge to remain in the tank for the full period of the surge.

I went with an actutated design to eliminate bubbles and noise. The entire surge plumbing (also 2") should be constantly primed. The surges would engage every 20seconds for 3seconds each. I have penductors on the all returns except for the last connections since it's close to the surface and functions as a siphon break.

I am making some changes to it, but here is what it looks like now. Only the tank and stand are inside the house, the rest is in the garage.

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/34-1_zpsc5cc5a9c.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/34-2_zpse56f8e77.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/34-3_zps29221e7a.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/34-4_zpsb3f10c8d.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/34-5_zpsa3b28db6.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/34-6_zpsf13d4da9.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/34-7_zps856c4333.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

I'm using a Reeflo Hammerhead for the return and plan on 2 Iwakis for the protein skimmer.

How is your tank doing? What would you change if you could do it all over?

CyclistMT · Oct 14, 2012

karimwassef said:
That is amazing. That is exactly why I'm using a 2" Bean myself.

I have a dual actuated surge design with 10 gallons each (20gal resevoirs) that are frequency offset to create the potential for sync or non-sync surges!

The reason I left so much room between the overflow lip and the Eurobrace bottom (2.75") is to account for a period when all the surge (20 gallons) will be in the main tank without sufficient drainage and a +1x margin. I basically allow for all the surge to remain in the tank for the full period of the surge.

I went with an actutated design to eliminate bubbles and noise. The entire surge plumbing (also 2") should be constantly primed. The surges would engage every 20seconds for 3seconds each. I have penductors on the all returns except for the last connections since it's close to the surface and functions as a siphon break.

I'm using a Reeflo Hammerhead for the return and plan on 2 Iwakis for the protein skimmer.

How is your tank doing? What would you change if you could do it all over?

Ah, great minds.....

Well, I wish you more luck than I had using a Bean overflow with surges. Even though he states that it has a lot of head room, I couldn't get it bubbleless for both normal flow and when the surge fires. It was one or the other. And I've spent hours tweaking and trying different things to get it to work for both. It just couldn't be done. So I settled on bubbleless for normal flow and live with bubbles in the sump when the surge fires.

You may want to bump up your surge sizes if you can and/or use one larger surge tank. I have found that a good surge is sized to about 10% of the tank volume. I like the idea of the alternating surges that you have going but 10 gals in a 380 gal tank is going to be a very short surge. When both fire at once it won't be terrible but you may find it is still a bit short. I'm surging about 25 gals at a time and it takes about 20 seconds to drain (roughly 55 seconds to refill). At 10 gals a pop you will surge often but not for very long.

When my surge fires my tank water level goes up by 1/2" tops. So even if you up your surge volume, you'll be fine.

Actuated ball valves are the best way to do surges in my opinion. I love mine. If you don't want to put them together yourself I can hook you up with the vendor that did mine. Totally plug and play. Saved me a ton of hassle. One thing to note, if you're filling your surge tank from the bottom, you will want to put a check valve in there so the entire surge tank doesn't drain when switching between surge tanks. Otherwise you'll be introducing air in each surge anyway. You can overcome this by going over the top with your supply line. I didn't and I ended up finding some cheap (all plastic) check valves at Home Depot in the well pump section. They may not last forever but if they fail I can replace mine easily as I plumbed them in using clear hose and clamps. Something to think about though if you haven't already.

Ok, are you ready to be freaked out again? I too have opted to put eductors on my returns. However, I am not using a pressure pump so I know I'm not getting the most of of them. Flow is better though. I can't remember if the Hammerhead is a pressure pump. You might want to check because you do need a pressure pump to make eductors work their best. I got penductors from Premium Aquatics because they have a very small footprint and don't stand out as much in the tank.

Honestly I don't think there is much different I would do with my tank but it is still a bit of a work in progress. But here are a few tidbits.

I wish I could have a bigger surge but I couldn't go bigger on the surge tank or sump to hold the extra water so that was just not possible anyway.

I'm not 100% satisfied with the Lumenbrite large reflectors I have. They don't have as much spread as I would like (kind of expected that) but I have a plan that will compensate so I will be keeping them for now.

I'm learning that while Royal Blue LED's will give great "pop" it may mute some other colors so I plan to add some 410-420nm (near UV) LED's to get back that UVL Super Actinic look.

Was trying to save some money by going with Sicce stream pumps over Tunze but I'm losing the battle on the quiet front so in retrospect I probably should have just thrown down for Tunze.

My Waterblaster 10,000 pumps are noisier than expected. Knowing that now I probably would have stuck to my original plan for Laguna pumps.

I hope all of that helps!

karimwassef · Oct 14, 2012

Again - amazing!

I've been looking at ways to allow more play with the surges and was working on a new layout for my garage. The latest incorporates a single 100 gallons surge resevoir for a possible surge of 80 gallons at a time max. Realistically, I don't think I would do that since the overflow in the MT won't handle it but this way, I would have the ability to control my overflow volume and timing independent of the resevoir size. The surge action won't be determined by switches in the resevoir - they will be driven by the program I'm planning to implement with float switches to act as inputs to the code (mostly for protection).

Great feedback on the feed line. Easy enough to implement.

In terms of how to quiten the surge with a beanflow, I have a 'radical' idea but it is dangerous since it is actuated. Here's my thinking...

The reason the bean overflow gets loud during the surge is because the second pipe (the one that usually has a trickle) is forced to carry high volume for a short period. This essentially removes the value of the bean... The basic bean concept is to tune the first pipe to be 100% full and have the tolerance (low volume) picked up by the second.

My idea is to add an actuator on the second drain (DANGER!! I know). The idea here is to allow the first pipe to run at 100% without the support of the second pipe. This would allow it to run quietly without the support of the second pipe. The result would be an immediate rise in the tank water level (reason to have my overflow lower). This "controlled 2nd drain OFF" would last until the level sensor in the main tank shows that the surge is nearly all drained (adjustable) and then would re-open the pipe for normal operation. A "danger" sensor could be added to over-ride this function for a period as well.

Basically, during the surge, there is no bean. Only one completely flooded 2" drain. The tank has to be able to take on the surge volume. There is always the 3nd "emergency" drain, but if we get there - things have gone out of hand.

The single biggest threat here is that blocking the 2nd drain with an actuator makes this an "active" drain instead of the beautiful "passive" drain that bean came up with. However, since the forcing function to the system is now active (surge), the response is also active unless someone has an alternative quiet surge passive overflow idea.

Another active solution is to create a second drain to the main pipe from a T - one without the gate valve. This drain is usually closed, but during the surge, it opens and has a second gate valve allowing for the normal bean gate level to be changed during a surge to a second flow rate. The final effect would be to have the main drain have two gate valve settings - one for normal, and one for surge. This is less dangerous than the option below since it would be allowing for more flow instead of less during the surge. ... still, it's an active, not a passive solution.

I've been trying to find some time to simulate these options so I can better predict whether the MT can handle it, but I've run out of time and will be placing the final order for the glass. The one thing I cannot play with is the location of the overflow and return bulkheads... this is why I'm so concerned with their location.

I'll post pics with the new setup next...

karimwassef · Oct 14, 2012

karimwassef · Oct 14, 2012

Yes. The Reeflo is pressure rated (21-23") based on configuration. It's a power hog with 280W but it's a very capable pump.

In terms of powerheads.. I'm not a big fan of running wires into my MT. I'm hoping the opposing surges will do the job, but I've had plenty of opposing feedback touting the Tunze super-expensive option as the way to go... To put it in perspective, my tank will probably cost less than twice the price of the Tunze powerheads recommended to use in it. That seems more than extravagent.

I'll probably experiment again and I've found some great threads discussing modifying lower cost powerheads to achieve the volume throughput with DIY eductor housings. I might just start with the biggest RIO and a penductor to creat the lowest cost baseline... LOL

On the LEDs, I was planning on a cluster of different Crees (3W, 5W). Here's what I have to date (in progress):

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/LED1_zps8ecf9f8d.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

with this configuration array on ~ 3" pitch.

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/LED2_zpsa2fbcafb.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

I based it on this article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/aafeature

For my size tank, I am planning on 3 clusters like that made into a single panel. I know this is overkill but I'm comparing my output to what I would get will 3 500W MH (except the LEDs are dimmable) for an 8' tank.

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/LED3_zpsfb9237ce.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

This is still on the very-expensive side with 672W of LED, so I'll probably need to cut back - just not sure where yet.

karimwassef · Oct 14, 2012

updated surge feed line

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/39_zpsbc853283.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

CyclistMT · Oct 15, 2012

I agree that between the Hammerhead pump and the surges you may have enough flow. However you may want to entertain a back up plan if it's not enough or if you need more down the road when the corals fill in and block some flow. I'm just thinking it might be easier to plan for it now and not need it than trying to reconfigure for it later. I'm alreay contemplating a wave box or additional power heads (as much as I hate that thought) to increase my flow and I don't even have any corals in it yet.

Also, ditch the eductors on your surge. There will not be enough pressure to make them work unless you're a couple of stories up with your surge. Trust me, I tried it.

I'm assuming you're using 2" piping for the surge too. If so, you can step it down to 1.5" in the tank to genterate more velocity. That's what I did and it really helped push a faster flow of water across my 5 feet of tank.

That is a radical idea to put actuators on the Bean overflow and clearly you recognize the danger. So you've probably thought about this but I'm going to state it anyway for anyone else that might be following along. I don't think the timing would be an issue as I'm sure you can get that right with the proper relays and such but it's the mechanical aspect that would scare me the most. Introducing actuators and float switches will not be about IF one of them will fail but WHEN. If you go down this path, I would recommed installing at least one more if not two more emergency drains. Since these should be dry under normal operation it doesn't matter how many you add but that way if an actuator or switch fails, you still have 2-3 drains to handle the surge.

That being said, let me give you a little more detail into the problem I ran into with the Bean and a surge. Perhaps that will help you figure out a way to overcome it.

If I set my Bean for the normal flow of the return pumps, I have to turn the valve on the siphon drain about 2/3 closed or better to ensure a stable water level in the overflow box. If I open it further, the 2" siphon works so well it drains the overflow box and then proceeds to suck in air. With the valve that far closed, the open channel kicks in with a vengence when the surge fires. But now I have 2-2" siphon channels running becuase, of course, the air line on the open channel is quickly submerged. Because it's working so well, the overflow box empties very quickly but even though the airline gets exposed, the water is flowing so fast at this point it can't pull in enough air to break the siphon and the overflow box completely empties, once again sucking in a bunch of air. I've often thought I might be able to tune it for both flow rates if I would have just used 1.5" pipe. Unfortunately my space is so constrained there is no way I could change it out to test it.

I can't give you any feedback (but I'm going to anyway

) on the LED's since I decided to stick with MH for my main lighting and I'm just using LED's for supplements. I just couldn't find the ROI in less than 10 years, even with MH bulb replacement costs, to justify the upfront cost. So what I'm going to say is just my opinion with only half a much research as I should have done to be truely informed. To me, one thing is clear, Royal Blue and Cool White alone are not going to cut it long term for our tanks. You are going with a multi color scheme, which is good, but I think this is still experimental so there are a lot of opinions on what is best but not enough data to tell us what is right....yet. The bit of research I have done would tell me to ditch the red you have going on and add in Warm White if you want some red spectrum. Also, that few of UV may get overwhelmed by all the others. Again, you may have done a lot more research than I have so take my comments with more than just a few grains of salt.

I think I might try my hand at some DIY on the LED front for additional supplemention. I need to fill in the very outer edges of my tank and I would like to create something that is similar to a UVL 50/50 VHO lamp. (I know, I know, just buy the UVL bulb and be done with it. I think this is where I get get better ROI with LED.) I believe I can do that with a mix of Warm White and UV in equal ratios or maybe a 40% WW to 60% UV split. I'll put these on sperate drivers so I can have my UV on with my Royal Blue strips duing dawn and dusk to fill in the flouresence missing from Royal Blue's alone.

I'm excited to see your system come together. Looks like it will be a lot of fun!

karimwassef · Oct 15, 2012

This is why I originally wanted a second gate valve on the open channel. It's not necessary for normal flow, but valuable in tuning for abnormal flow. Also, maybe use 3/8" hose for the siphon break on the 2"?

The more I think about it, the more I like the second actuated drain on a T with the main. This ensures a baseline that is the bean original but establishes the option up to a full 2" pipe in addition. The ball valve on the actuated return would allow for surge tuning. Pics to come...

karimwassef · Oct 16, 2012

Feedback on tank dims & overflow 380G

karimwassef

Active member

CyclistMT

More Idiot Than Savant

karimwassef

Active member

CyclistMT

More Idiot Than Savant

karimwassef

Active member

karimwassef

Active member

karimwassef

Active member

karimwassef

Active member

CyclistMT

More Idiot Than Savant

karimwassef

Active member

karimwassef

Active member

Similar threads