First Fish in Quarantine Dead

[wooden_reefer]

"To be specific, again, many of the popular nitrate test kits including API and Red Sea, and I believe Salifert as well, indicate NO3- ppm in their colorimetric read out"

Are you sure that it says whole molecule counts? Does it actually say so?

I am not saying that I know for sure, but sometimes tradition can be decisive.

So when a source says 20 ppm nitrate, are you sure that it does not mean 20 ppm N-nitrate?

People in an area of interest often get accustomed to tradition.

Having to convert is not many people like to do.

 

[Hzuiel]

If you do not quarantine your fish then drip acclimation is really your only recourse. If you do quarantine, and you should, then drip acclimation is completely unnecessary. There are plenty of threads here on RC detailing a better approach - whether folks do it, or don't do it, is ultimately up to them.

Yeah considering that the entire point of drip acclimation is to slowly bring the specimen up to tank salinity....If you can adjust the salinity of the tank they are going into, why bother?

 

[myofibroblast]

"To be specific, again, many of the popular nitrate test kits including API and Red Sea, and I believe Salifert as well, indicate NO3- ppm in their colorimetric read out"



Are you sure that it says whole molecule counts? Does it actually say so?



I am not saying that I know for sure, but sometimes tradition can be decisive.



So when a source says 20 ppm nitrate, are you sure that it does not mean 20 ppm N-nitrate?

Lets use a kit as an illustration. API (one of the most widely available nitrate test kits in the hobby) nitrate kit reads in the instruction: "This test kit reads total nitrate (NO3-) level in parts per million (ppm)..."

Given this information, would you say it is reading 60ppm nitrate or nitrate-nitrogen?

Red Sea nitrate pro reads out NO3 ppm, and page 10 gives a conversion of the readout from NO3 to NO3-N for those interested in NO3-N values after reading the test.

Does this suggest the colorimetric reads nitrate or nitrate-nitrogen?

Surely, even tradition has to pay deference to specific instructions?

Tradition has its place, but it doesn't replace due diligence.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Lets use a kit as an illustration. API (one of the most widely available nitrate test kits in the hobby) nitrate kit reads in the instruction: "This test kit reads total nitrate (NO3-) level in parts per million (ppm)..."

Given this information, would you say it is reading 60ppm nitrate or nitrate-nitrogen?

Red Sea nitrate pro reads out NO3 ppm, and page 10 gives a conversion of the readout from NO3 to NO3-N for those interested in NO3-N values after reading the test.

Does this suggest the colorimetric reads nitrate or nitrate-nitrogen?

Surely, even tradition has to pay deference to specific instructions?

Tradition has its place, but it doesn't replace due diligence.

Please note that the OP had not indicated what test kit was used.

I was a bit presumptive in thinking that the kit used is like mine.

You seem to be even more presumptive in thinking that it is like yours.

It is only a discussion but actually informative to some, I suppose.

 

[myofibroblast]

Please note that the OP had not indicated what test kit was used.



I was a bit presumptive in thinking that the kit used is like mine.



You seem to be even more presumptive in thinking that it is like yours.



It is only a discussion but actually informative to some, I suppose.

1. I have no reason to believe the OP would convey nitrate when he meant nitrate-nitrogen. No where in his or her original post was there a mention of NO3-N or permutations thereof.

2. In the absence of information to the contrary, calculations should be made based on the information available, which is a nitrate delta of 60ppm.

3. If there is doubt that the OP inadvertently misrepresented the read out, the first step is to clarify rather than presume.

4. I clarified your arithmetic based on your dubious interpretation of the OP's reported 60ppm rise in nitrate as N-nitrate.

5. You will note that you were the only one to arrive at the questionable conclusion that his nitrate test kit is faulty when in fact you concocted a protein estimate out of hasty presumption.

6. In the end, it isn't that your presumptions may be incorrect. It is the judgment that his kit is bad (which may have led some to spend unnecessary dollars on more test kits) based on what is very likely false assumptions that needs to be highlighted. It is careless at best, irresponsible at its worst.

7. And I would argue that I was no more or less presumptuous than you. The only difference is I refrained from making pronouncements on the OP's test kit reliability, which I argue is more responsible.

8. Finally, I'm glad we're having this discussion because it should remind each of us to read the label, understand what we are interpreting, and always do our own arithmetic when numbers are thrown around.

 

[wooden_reefer]

1. I have no reason to believe the OP would convey nitrate when he meant nitrate-nitrogen. No where in his or her original post was there a mention of NO3-N or permutations thereof.

2. In the absence of information to the contrary, calculations should be made based on the information available, which is a nitrate delta of 60ppm.

3. If there is doubt that the OP inadvertently misrepresented the read out, the first step is to clarify rather than presume.

4. I clarified your arithmetic based on your dubious interpretation of the OP's reported 60ppm rise in nitrate as N-nitrate.

5. You will note that you were the only one to arrive at the questionable conclusion that his nitrate test kit is faulty when in fact you concocted a protein estimate out of hasty presumption.

6. In the end, it isn't that your presumptions may be incorrect. It is the judgment that his kit is bad (which may have led some to spend unnecessary dollars on more test kits) based on what is very likely false assumptions that needs to be highlighted. It is careless at best, irresponsible at its worst.

7. And I would argue that I was no more or less presumptuous than you. The only difference is I refrained from making pronouncements on the OP's test kit reliability, which I argue is more responsible.

8. Finally, I'm glad we're having this discussion because it should remind each of us to read the label, understand what we are interpreting, and always do our own arithmetic when numbers are thrown around.

Why are you so sure that the default interpretation of ppm in this hobby is by whole molecular weight?

This is not chemistry lab; this is a forum of hobbylists of a hobby with its history. The use of N is superior for the ease of interpratation and is thus often used.

Whole molecular weight basis is needless complication.

Do you want to see cu concentration expressed in ppm per molecular weight of copper salt? I don't.

 

[myofibroblast]

Why are you so sure that the default interpretation of ppm in this hobby is by whole molecular weight?



This is not chemistry lab; this is a forum of hobbylists of a hobby with its history. The use of N is superior for the ease of interpratation and is thus often used.



Whole molecular weight basis is needless complication.



Do you want to see cu concentration expressed in ppm per molecular weight of copper salt? I don't.

1. I make no presumptions about the currency of terminology in this hobby.

2. It is fact that many major nitrate test kits available to aquarium hobbyists in the US (e.g. API, Red Sea, and as recently as 2011 in my experience Salifert) calibrate their colorimetric scale to total nitrate, not nitrate-nitrogen.

3. When someone is asking about nitrate rise of 60 ppm, it is A. presumptuous to switch the discussion to N-nitrates without clarifying and B. irresponsible to declare the test kit is bad after presuming nitrates to mean N-nitrates.

4. Our personal feelings and preference on whether nitrate test kit read outs should report nitrate or N-nitrate is irrelevant. The manufacturers made their decisions and the color charts are what they are. Wishing to the stars that API or Red Sea calibrate their color readings to N-nitrate does not change the very fact that the color charts read nitrate.

Lets separate the discussion on how you wish people would communicate nitrogen content from what has actually occurred. The former (what you wish) is not pertinent to the judgment you already passed on the OP's nitrate test kit.

To review the discussion on what has actually occurred (i.e. your judgment) I refer you to prior posts.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"This test kit reads total nitrate (NO3-) level in parts per million (ppm)..."

This is from your test kit.

Why would the instruction of your test kit state specifically "total nitrate"? If ppm automatically means total nitrate, why would "total nitrate" be the emphasis?

The maker of your kit also knows that N- is a common definition of PPM and so deliberately clarifies that it is not the other common definition.

Total nitrate really is needless complication. Only the purist would insist on it.

Likewise, my test kit uses the language "nitrate nitrogen", not N-nitrate in science. I don't believe that most users of my test kit would write ppm N-nitrate, they will just say ppm nitrate. Also, often N-nitrate is meant often enough that the N is simply dropped.

 

[myofibroblast]

"This test kit reads total nitrate (NO3-) level in parts per million (ppm)..."



This is from your test kit.



Why would the instruction of your test kit state specifically "total nitrate"? If ppm automatically means total nitrate, why would "total nitrate" be the emphasis?



The maker of your kit also knows that N- is a common definition of PPM and so deliberately clarifies that it is not the other common definition.



Total nitrate really is needless complication. Only the purist would insist on it.



Often N-nitrate is meant often enough that the N is simply dropped.

1. ppm is part per million, it does not mean total nitrate. It is analogous to a percentage (i.e. part per hundred), similar to part per thousand (ppt...like sea water is approx 35 ppt NaCl). They are simplified ways to express "percentage" of very low concentration solutes.

2. "Total nitrate" is used to specifically point out the read out gives you the part per million of nitrate ion (NO3-, nitrogen 3 oxygen, negatively charged hence the minus). It is used so people do not mistake this for nitrate-nitrogen. If the test says 80 ppm NO3-(negative charge), the instruction is telling you SPECIFICALLY it is measuring 80mg of NO3- (nitrate ion = nitrogen plus 3 oxygen) and NOT the nitrogen content within nitrate ion.

3. You are making assumptions again, willfully, that taint your ability to interpret the test result. The instruction is crystal clear: it is saying it tests for nitrate, not the nitrogen within nitrate.

4. Again, lets not bring what you wish to the discussion. Lets focus on the facts and the data.

 

[myofibroblast]

*80mg/L (erratum)