first saltwater aquarium, weird 15g setup, many questions

[skipper03]

i've been keeping aquariums since i was 9, but have had zero interest in saltwater until very recently! this will be my 31st and 32nd time setting up a tank, and the 5th & 6th aquariums currently in my room.

i'm taking this spare 10g and 5g, and connecting them with a clear pipe so that the fish can swim between them. i've been wanting to try connecting tanks like this for a long time lol. i want to try and make them very different looking environments. i haven't bought anything new yet, just old equipment i've already had. i do know that this light probably wouldn't cut it for most coral.

i think i know what i want, a single green clown goby, and because they appreciate coral, probably try that as well. part of the idea with the connected tanks setup is that i can remove the bridge and keep the goby away from the coral if it damages it, so it can recover!

i've been doing a lot of research for the past week, combing through all of my fish books and collection of tfh magazines actually reading the saltwater parts for once, as well as searching online, but i still have a lot of questions!
- wouldn't live sand and/or live rock add some bioload to the tanks if little animals are living in them, especially tanks this small? wouldn't that be more animals to worry about and take care of?? i understand the beneficial bacteria aspect but the invertebrates part is wild to me.
- why do saltwater people use different filters than freshwater people? is it just because the tanks tend to be bigger? am i ok to use a hob and an internal power filter? they're both made for like, double the size tank they're in. also the hob does have a weird protein skimmer attachment for the intake, if that's worth adding.
- this setup is on top of my dresser. would the vibrations of the drawers cause issues? i've kept animals (fw fish, axolotls) up there before, and they sometimes seemed mildly spooked when it happened but otherwise fine. but i have no idea whether it would scare a coral to death or something.
- how does the water work? especially with corals, because they need all those trace elements? do you get a salt mix that has them included? or do you dose them individually?
- are there any branching corals (because that's what green clown gobies like) that are beginner-friendly???
- should i get seperate tools (e.g. siphons, buckets) for this setup so that it and my freshwater aquariums aren't cross-contaminating each other?

 

[griss]

Welcome to RC and the salty side of the hobby. You’re likely to get many varied answers and there is no single correct way to successfully maintain a reef aquarium. We’ve got a good group on here who have a lot of years in the hobby. I’ve been in SW since the early 80’s and there’s others here who’ve been in it longer than me.

1. Live rock and live sand, yes, the hitchhikers (assuming you get ocean collected rock) will add to the bio load. But, you’re also adding a lot of biodiversity which is a good thing…not just bacteria.

These days, our choices for real (ocean collected) live rock is very limited. Companies like Tampa Bay Saltwater, KP Aquatics, Gulf Live Rock have a good reputation. Marco rocks sells dry rock and maricultured rock. Australian live rock is also available but pricy.

Many people, to save money, buy dry rock to build the base of their reef and top it off with real live rock.

2. Filters - actually, there’s a wide range of filters that SW hobbyists use. So, some are the same as FW, others are different. Most, IMO, is based on personal preference and past experiences with different filters. My personal choice of filtration is live rock and sand, a protein skimmer, and maybe a refugium. I know people who have had successful tanks with just a HOB filter (Whisper Power filter) or canister (Eheim) filter.

3. I don’t think the drawers will be an issue. My concern would be the moisture and weight that a dresser isn’t designed for.

4. Trace Elements - a good salt mix will add trace elements but, based on livestock, your tank might use more than the salt adds. Based on the small system, an additive like All For Reef would likely be good for your situation.

5. Montipora Digitata is a fairly easy small polyp stony coral to keep as long as you maintain the proper pH, Alkalinity, Calcium and Magnesium. Stable water parameters are the key to success with reef tanks. That’s why a lot of us keep larger tanks, the parameters are easier to keep stable.

Other branching corals would be photosynthetic Gorgonians, Colt corals, Sinularia, Nepthea.

6. Separate tools - I tend to lean on the cautious side and would get separate.

Final thought, the tube joining the two tanks leaves a couple pretty risky failure points.

 

[skipper03]

Welcome to RC and the salty side of the hobby. You’re likely to get many varied answers and there is no single correct way to successfully maintain a reef aquarium. We’ve got a good group on here who have a lot of years in the hobby. I’ve been in SW since the early 80’s and there’s others here who’ve been in it longer than me.

1. Live rock and live sand, yes, the hitchhikers (assuming you get ocean collected rock) will add to the bio load. But, you’re also adding a lot of biodiversity which is a good thing…not just bacteria.

These days, our choices for real (ocean collected) live rock is very limited. Companies like Tampa Bay Saltwater, KP Aquatics, Gulf Live Rock have a good reputation. Marco rocks sells dry rock and maricultured rock. Australian live rock is also available but pricy.

Many people, to save money, buy dry rock to build the base of their reef and top it off with real live rock.

2. Filters - actually, there’s a wide range of filters that SW hobbyists use. So, some are the same as FW, others are different. Most, IMO, is based on personal preference and past experiences with different filters. My personal choice of filtration is live rock and sand, a protein skimmer, and maybe a refugium. I know people who have had successful tanks with just a HOB filter (Whisper Power filter) or canister (Eheim) filter.

3. I don’t think the drawers will be an issue. My concern would be the moisture and weight that a dresser isn’t designed for.

4. Trace Elements - a good salt mix will add trace elements but, based on livestock, your tank might use more than the salt adds. Based on the small system, an additive like All For Reef would likely be good for your situation.

5. Montipora Digitata is a fairly easy small polyp stony coral to keep as long as you maintain the proper pH, Alkalinity, Calcium and Magnesium. Stable water parameters are the key to success with reef tanks. That’s why a lot of us keep larger tanks, the parameters are easier to keep stable.

Other branching corals would be photosynthetic Gorgonians, Colt corals, Sinularia, Nepthea.

6. Separate tools - I tend to lean on the cautious side and would get separate.

Final thought, the tube joining the two tanks leaves a couple pretty risky failure points.

i see, thank you!

on the dresser - it's extremely sturdy, made of solid wood, so i'm not worried about it. i've had a 20g up there before, and i'm sure it could handle more. the tanks are also on a tray, which should prevent most water damage.

on the tube - what do you mean exactly? like, uneven heating and filtration? i took that into consideration and am gonna do two filters and two heaters, and basically try to make it so that each tank would be fine on its own. i don't think that the fish i want would be able to get itself stuck in the tube, as its maximum length is about equal to the diameter of it. i guess elements could be unevenly distributed? and maybe if the flow was stronger in one tank than the other, and is pushing water towards the tube, it might be able to cause the other tank to overflow somehow? i'll test this setup out with some tap water tonight and see if that's possible.

 

[griss]

Just be careful with the dresser

Failure points - yes, heat, filtration, and the potential to have two different water qualities (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, temp, pH, Alk, Mg, salinity, etc.) between the two tanks.

U-Tubes are also notorious for losing siphon.

I’m not saying it can’t be done, there’s just a lot of challenges to it.

 

[griss]

On a side note, if you like Pink Floyd, try streaming KSHE-95. Local station that’s the longest broadcasting classic rock station in the world. They’re local to me and my go to station.

 

[Reefing102]

Welcome to RC!

Griss hit the main points.

With regards to bioload from live rock/inverts. While I’m sure they do add to it, I believe the general consensus is that the impact is so minimal that we just don’t take it into account with the exception of coral using nutrients and elements.

If it was me, I’d stick to soft corals such as the nepthea, colt, sinularia and similar.

With that said, and it may just be a lack of specific knowledge in u tubes and siphoning, but I’m failing to see how this could work. Two separate tanks sure, but essentially an open siphon between the two, I’m only picturing the larger draining into the smaller. Even used as a go between without a siphon, I can only see it creating a siphon due to the different size tanks. Like I said it could just be my inexperience with linking tanks in such a way.

 

[wvned]

Welcome to RC!

Griss hit the main points.

With regards to bioload from live rock/inverts. While I’m sure they do add to it, I believe the general consensus is that the impact is so minimal that we just don’t take it into account with the exception of coral using nutrients and elements.

If it was me, I’d stick to soft corals such as the nepthea, colt, sinularia and similar.

With that said, and it may just be a lack of specific knowledge in u tubes and siphoning, but I’m failing to see how this could work. Two separate tanks sure, but essentially an open siphon between the two, I’m only picturing the larger draining into the smaller. Even used as a go between without a siphon, I can only see it creating a siphon due to the different size tanks. Like I said it could just be my inexperience with linking tanks in such a way.

Once the air is removed from the tube it could be considered a siphon but no water would move through it unless one tank has a higher water level than the other.
It would not matter if one tank held 1000 gallons and was 10 feet deep and the other only 1, if they have the same water level no water will move through the tube.
I have seen pictures where large clear rigid tubes have been used to allow fish to swim between tanks before. That being said I am not sure how inclined they are to actually do it.
I would be more inclined to install bulkheads in the tanks and join them with clear PVC.
2 inch clear pipe is $9 a foot. 4 inch is $27.

 

[griss]

Once the air is removed from the tube it could be considered a siphon but no water would move through it unless one tank has a higher water level than the other.
It would not matter if one tank held 1000 gallons and was 10 feet deep and the other only 1, if they have the same water level no water will move through the tube.
I have seen pictures where large clear rigid tubes have been used to allow fish to swim between tanks before. That being said I am not sure how inclined they are to actually do it.
I would be more inclined to install bulkheads in the tanks and join them with clear PVC.
2 inch clear pipe is $9 a foot. 4 inch is $27.

Great points. I think the bulkheads and clear PVC are a much better (safer) idea.

 

[wvned]

I don't think there is any danger in placing the tube between the tanks as long as you don't pump water from one tank to the other to create a flow between them.

 

[Reefing102]

Once the air is removed from the tube it could be considered a siphon but no water would move through it unless one tank has a higher water level than the other.
It would not matter if one tank held 1000 gallons and was 10 feet deep and the other only 1, if they have the same water level no water will move through the tube.
I have seen pictures where large clear rigid tubes have been used to allow fish to swim between tanks before. That being said I am not sure how inclined they are to actually do it.
I would be more inclined to install bulkheads in the tanks and join them with clear PVC.
2 inch clear pipe is $9 a foot. 4 inch is $27.

Appreciate the explanation! Makes perfect sense

 

[Timfish]

I'm going to start with the tube and to be blunt unless you want to see fish swimming through it I don't see the point, without water movement between the tanks water in the tube will be stagnate and even basic parameters will be different between the tanks. With it being clear there will be algae growing in it and an air pocket will gradually grow. It seems to me it's just creating unnessesary maintenace. What I would do to were I to set up a system like that is use a small pump to move water between the two tanks and use a black siphon tube so algae doesn't grow in it. There would stil be the issue of stuff growing inside of it and it would need to be cleaned on a regular basis.

Live Rock/Sand - There's a lot going on we can't test for AND most (97%) of the microbial stuff in reef ecosystems can't be cultured and stuck in a bottle. There's also cryptic sponges that are essential for healthy reefs. Qcean sourced live rock is the best way to get that stuff going in a reef system. As far as the complaint about pests, most that hhave shown up in my systems have come from other aquarists (see my post here for a mantis shrimp that only showed up once 1 year after it was intruduced).

Filtration - Mostly sales hype IMO. Lee Chin Eng back in the 50s and 60s had clown fish spawning and corals growing using just live rock, live sand and air bubbles for water circulation. Corals and sponges are doing all the work. Here's a filterless system I maintained for 15 years Video 1 Video 2 (Skimmers are a good example, back in 2009 Ken Feldman at Penn State, besides showing skimmers don't remove very much, developed 2 different metrics that could be used by skimmer manufacters to use so consumers could actually compare diffferent skimmers and they still have not adopted them.)

As far as vibration from drawers, if a fish was still stressed from a drawer opening and closing after a month or two I would thing it has a problem. Many of the reef fish we get are found in surf zones in the wild. They may not get used to a random slamming of a drawer but I'd think they would get used to drawers being slide opened and closed daily.

Saltwater - All teh salt mixes on the market will have basic elements. Depending on algae, fish, corals, sponges and other stuff you may need to supplement stuff. Here's my thoughts on testing and supplements.

I don't know what test kits you have but here's what I have. You'll hear lots of nay sayers wheen it comes to what's best but all the comparison testing I've seen shows they're all about the same. I would say the primary consideration is what you find easiest to use. Reagents fr test kits can go bad or be incorrectly prepared by the manufacterer so if there's ever any doupt about a result don't hesitate to take steps to verify the test kit and results. I have multiple kits for the same parameters for this reason. The two parameters I test for most often are alkalinity (aka KH and bicarbonate, DIC, HCO3) and PO4 (aka phosphate, orthophosphate) next would be nitrate and calcium. So here's my list of the test kits or testers I use:

pH - API - You'll want to keep it above 7.6 pH but the most common range you'll hear and read is 8.0 to 8.2 pH. Above 8.4 or 8.5 you may start to see issues.

Alkalinity - API and Salifert - 7 - 10 dKH. If you use a digital tester you'll get results in ppm and your tester will have the conversion table or divider to convert to dKH. Alkalinity is the most important parameter to track. More correctly referred to as HCO3- or HCO3 It more than any of the other parameters we can test for indicates how fast corals are calcifying in a reef system. If it's going down corals are using it up for their skeleton. If it's going down corals aren't calcyfing as fast and it may indicate a problem even if everyone looks fine. Keep in mind processes in your system will also be supplying calcium and alkalinity as sand and rock is dissolved. If you have a lot of growth you may see it drop to 4 or 5 dKH without any apparent effect on corals. It's risky letting it stay this low so testing regularly is important and you may want to invest in a calcium reactor if you're needing to be constantly dosing bicarbonate and or calcium

Calcium - API and Salifert - Above 360 mg/l but most auqarist prefer to keep it above 400.

Phosphate - Red Sea Pro, Salifert, Nyos - Unfortunately there is still a lot of misinformation floating around about this but you'll want to keep it between .03 mg/l and .3 mg/l. Below .03 mg/l corals can become deficient in phosphorus which will hurt their photobiology. Above .3 mg/l and you're exposing them to levels above what they would experience in teh wild and at some point it may affect their calcification.

Nitrate - Nyos and Salifert - Keep it low, less than 10 ,g/l or non existant. Too much nitrate and corals ability to calcify is inhibited. As it can disrupt the mutualistic relationship with the algae they cultovate negatively affecting thier photobiology. Corals preferred forms of nitrogen are ammonia and urea, these primarily come from fish but there are processes that convert free nitrogen into ammonia. Corals also may have simbiotic diazotrophs that convert free nitrogen into nitrates.

Magnesium - Red Sea and Salifert - You'll want to keep it above 1200 mg/l.

Ammonia. - Salifert - There shouldn't be any measurable ammonia.

Nitrite - Haven't tested this in years. In reef systems it's quickly converted to either ammonia or nitrate.

Initially it's probably a good idea to test all of these frequently. As your system develops you'll get an idea of how your animals are acting as these parameters vary and adjust your testing accordingly. But keep in mind reef systems are dynamic and corals can adapt to less than ideal conditions. If testing isn't done regularly a system may reach a tipping point without any advance warning from your corals.


Purple Stylo is one of the hardiest corals I've come across. Don't worry about getting the so called "Milka" variety with white tips. Mine was supposedly "Milka" but it's tips may be the same color as the rest of the coral or pink or green or cream colored. Montipora digitat is another hardy coral but also very brittle.

The salt probably isn't good for your fresh water systems but also probably won't build up to the point where it's harmful. I'd just rinse them off and not bother with a 2nd set (says the person that has 2, 3 or 4 of everything ;D ).

 

[Timfish]

Here's some links you may find informative:

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title. Used copies are available on line and it may be free to read on Internet Archive. Both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems and are an excellent starting point to understand the conflicting roles of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka "carbon dosing") in reef ecosystems.

Delbeek Molar Ratios

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Microbial view of Coral Decline

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges Jones
- YouTube

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)
- YouTube

Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching
- YouTube

DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome
- YouTube

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"
- YouTube

To Save Corals in an Oahu Bay, First Vacuum up Invasive Algae, Then Apply Sea Urchins | response.restoration.noaa.gov

response.restoration.noaa.gov

 

[skipper03]

ty all!

i filled up the setup last night, and it works! i tried with one filter on at a time, as well as both on, and the levels of water weren't affected. i do understand that i am needlessly complicating things with the tube lol. it's pretty easy to take out and put back, so maintenance won't be too bad.
i am going to try and find another thing to lift the 5g up more so the tanks can be more level with each other... maybe some foam, since it's a little uneven.

i am scared of the idea of drilling bulkheads into these thrifted glass tanks, probably won't be doing that
if this doesn't work out, i'm probably just going to remove the 5g altogether and have a regular style 10g.

also, i am going to have lids- going to make them myself out of leftover twin wall polycarbonate, so they'll fit my weird placement of the hob filter and everything.

i checked out the live rock sellers that griss mentioned and wAO. um. i could get 15lbs of live sand and 10lbs of live rock from gulf live rock for $212 including shipping, maybe... that'll be like, most of my check after rent and food

 

[griss]

ty all!

i filled up the setup last night, and it works! i tried with one filter on at a time, as well as both on, and the levels of water weren't affected. i do understand that i am needlessly complicating things with the tube lol. it's pretty easy to take out and put back, so maintenance won't be too bad.
i am going to try and find another thing to lift the 5g up more so the tanks can be more level with each other... maybe some foam, since it's a little uneven.

i am scared of the idea of drilling bulkheads into these thrifted glass tanks, probably won't be doing that
if this doesn't work out, i'm probably just going to remove the 5g altogether and have a regular style 10g.

also, i am going to have lids- going to make them myself out of leftover twin wall polycarbonate, so they'll fit my weird placement of the hob filter and everything.

View attachment 32417540

i checked out the live rock sellers that griss mentioned and wAO. um. i could get 15lbs of live sand and 10lbs of live rock from gulf live rock for $212 including shipping, maybe... that'll be like, most of my check after rent and food

Rock is a bit pricy. That's why a lot of people use a large base of dry (old reef rock mined from land) rock and top it off with a small amount of real live rock. If you want to see real pricy live rock, look at the Australian rock...$25/lb last time I checked and that did not include shipping.

 

[Reefing102]

@griss Most Australian is pushing $33-$35/lb now from TankStop. There’s others that may be cheaper but yea.

One other option is checking your local club/fb marketplace for tank breakdowns. Typically around my neck of the woods, people are selling live rock for about $2-$3 per pound. Just be sure to look out for pests like Vermetids and Aiptasia and others as they can be considered a nuisance.

 

[griss]

@griss Most Australian is pushing $33-$35/lb now from TankStop. There’s others that may be cheaper but yea.

One other option is checking your local club/fb marketplace for tank breakdowns. Typically around my neck of the woods, people are selling live rock for about $2-$3 per pound. Just be sure to look out for pests like Vermetids and Aiptasia and others as they can be considered a nuisance.

Wow, I didn't know it had gone up that much. When I looked into Aussie rock just a couple months ago it was $25/lb.

Good thought on FB Marketplace. Yes, people in my area are listing it for $2-4/lb.

 

[griss]

If anyone is looking for Aussie rock, it looks like Scott at Aquarium Specialty is still selling for $25/lb.

Biotek Marine Aussie Live Rock By the Pound - 10 LB Minimum Order

The mininum order quantity is 10 lbs amd this is priced in 10 pound increments. If you need this rock in quantities other than 10 lb. increments then please conact us via email or by phone.

www.aquariumspecialty.com

 

[skipper03]

@griss Most Australian is pushing $33-$35/lb now from TankStop. There’s others that may be cheaper but yea.

One other option is checking your local club/fb marketplace for tank breakdowns. Typically around my neck of the woods, people are selling live rock for about $2-$3 per pound. Just be sure to look out for pests like Vermetids and Aiptasia and others as they can be considered a nuisance.

i wish i had a local club i live in a small town

tried looking at fb marketplace and the closest thing i could find is two hours south lol


i think i'm probably going to just go the route of mostly dry rock and then a little live rock, idk what ratio tho. it seems like 10lbs total of rock would be good to scape the 10g... maybe like 8lbs dry rock and 2lbs live rock?

also, is it a thing to mix regular aquarium sand with live sand? would it not be as useful to get live sand if i get live rock, or vice versa? (would the critters from the rock be able to colonize the sand, or from the sand be able to colonize the rock?)

 

[griss]

i wish i had a local club i live in a small town

tried looking at fb marketplace and the closest thing i could find is two hours south lol


i think i'm probably going to just go the route of mostly dry rock and then a little live rock, idk what ratio tho. it seems like 10lbs total of rock would be good to scape the 10g... maybe like 8lbs dry rock and 2lbs live rock?

also, is it a thing to mix regular aquarium sand with live sand? would it not be as useful to get live sand if i get live rock, or vice versa? (would the critters from the rock be able to colonize the sand, or from the sand be able to colonize the rock?)

I think 10 lbs would be more than enough total rock. I've never used real (ocean harvested) live sand. I use CaribSea sands for all my tanks. They do sell some varieties (Arag-Alive) that are supposedly infused with beneficial bacteria. With the live rock, the dry rock and sand will eventually become live as well.