I agree, it is not a death sentence. But it is certainly risky, there is no substitute for a good QT process. Ich made it to my display before I had a QT setup, now I have a pretty nice one.
Fish Developing Resistance to Ich
- Thread starter michealprater
- Start date
Cantonesefish
with active cooling
If I were you I would remove all of the rock and inverts from the DT into a fallow system and then treat the DT for ich... it's a bit of work but you wouldn't have to worry about your Emp, or any other new fish..
Just an update. The emporer is back in the display and doing great. Show less and less signs each day. Only a spot here and there everyonce in a while. Cleaner shrimp have helped tremendously, along with frequent water changes and heavy feeding.
ezhoops
New member
Ok I might be confused...but are you saying that leaving my tank fallow for 72days is pointless because ich will live 11-12 months or until it "burns out"?
My other question is how do you prevent anything wet (not a fish) from bringing ich into your tank?
RBU1
Moving on Up
Snails, corals, live rock.....Anything wet can have crypt on it. Those mentioned items can not keep crypt alive but can be harboring it. The only way to be sure is to place snails in a tank with no fish and leave them there for 12 weeks. You are essentially creating a fallow snail tank.
Jacob D
New member
I just stumbled across this thread, a little late to the party as usual
The "theory" as I have heard it is nothing to do with leaving your tank fallow. 8-12 weeks of fallow tank should eliminate ich.I have heard this theory too; the idea being that the parasite produces asexually and eventually the offspring become impotent and therefore die out. I'm no genetics expert but this seems contradictory to me; everything nature designs is designed to carry on life, otherwise it was a bad design and would have died out millions of years ago
It seems more likely that something like this could happen with sexual reproduction where exchange of DNA leads to mutations, sequence deletions, and can lead to sterility. This is exactly how scientists and biologists have worked together to fight against certain agricultural pests and African bees (by creating genetic mod. strains to breed with the wild species causing sterile offspring). I have never seen this information regarding Crypt. burnout published in any research documents or books... if anyone has please list the source(s)!With regards to your other question, you prevent Ich by quarantining everything for at least 8-12 weeks... at least theoretically.
Stuart60611
New member
I think I may be able to shed some light on the initial query of this thread. The answer to your question is that it has, indeed, been scientificly proven that some fish develop two forms of immunity to the crypt parasite. The first type of immunity is called partial immunity, whereby fish can resist parasites from attaching to various areas of their body and/or in overall reduced numbers. The second kind of immunity is full immunity, whereby a fish can resist all parasites from attaching. With either immunity, it has also been shown that they only remain effective for a matter of months to a year and change with the partial immunity generally lasting longer than full immunity. I know of no study which demonstrated why or what factors influence which immunity develops in certain fish.
Now, immunity should not be confused with a fish's general ability to cope with the physical negative effects of the infestation. Some fish both as individuals and as a particular species in general tolerate and cope with the negative effects of the infestation better than others and thus may appear somewhat immune when in fact that are actually more tolerant. Likewise, some fish, like mandarins and eels, are more resistant to the parasite due to their slime coats and thus appear more immune when in fact they are more resistent. Conversely, some fish may appear less likely to develop immunities when in fact they are less resistent, such as tangs who lack much of slime coat.
In summary, if you keep a system infested with the parasite longer than about 18 months fish will loose whatever immunities they may have developed to the parasite. However, different fish both as individuals and as species in general may be able to cope well and/or resist the parasites better than others.
Now, immunity should not be confused with a fish's general ability to cope with the physical negative effects of the infestation. Some fish both as individuals and as a particular species in general tolerate and cope with the negative effects of the infestation better than others and thus may appear somewhat immune when in fact that are actually more tolerant. Likewise, some fish, like mandarins and eels, are more resistant to the parasite due to their slime coats and thus appear more immune when in fact they are more resistent. Conversely, some fish may appear less likely to develop immunities when in fact they are less resistent, such as tangs who lack much of slime coat.
In summary, if you keep a system infested with the parasite longer than about 18 months fish will loose whatever immunities they may have developed to the parasite. However, different fish both as individuals and as species in general may be able to cope well and/or resist the parasites better than others.
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ezhoops
New member
I just stumbled across this thread, a little late to the party as usual
I have heard this theory too; the idea being that the parasite produces asexually and eventually the offspring become impotent and therefore die out. I'm no genetics expert but this seems contradictory to me; everything nature designs is designed to carry on life, otherwise it was a bad design and would have died out millions of years ago
I understand your point. I'm not sure your seeing it at the right angle. The way I understand it is that the parasite needs a living host i.e. fish to live and reproduce, thus if you remove the fish the parasite eventually dies off. I am no expert but have done some reading (who knows what is reliable though) but it seems if you remove the food source any organism with die off given enough time. I think that is the idea, I could be wrong.
If you were adding new corals, snails, etc, isn't there an easier way? Dipping, water changes, etc?
otherwise I would think you would need 2 completely different complete set ups with equal lights, etc. so they would live thru the 8-12 week period.
It just seems so relentless (ich that is)
Maybe we are all talking about two different things here. Fallow tank and the ability for ich to thrive in a tank with host fishes for 12 months or longer.
The theory about Marine Ich burning out, is that the strain ceases to multiply after 11-12 months. I read a study by Dr. Burgess where they came to this conclusion, also concluded by Leebca on Reef Sanctuary.
The fallowing period statistics is as follows as quoted by Leebca:
"I found that 6 weeks would give you the odds of about 99% success. That is, 1 in a 100 would still have a living Marine Ich parasite in the fishless tank.
At about 8 weeks, the odds are above 99.9% or less than 1 in a 1000 that there would be any living parasite in the fishless tank.
As far as research has found, the odds are about 100% or very close to that number, that there would be no living parasite in the fishless tank, when the tank is fishless for no less than 12 weeks.
I have heard of tanks still having parasites at or below 6 weeks, but so far have not heard of anyone having identified and confirmed living parasites in fishless tanks at 8 weeks, though there is a very small chance." -- end quote
So yes, the answer to your other question, is if you remove the host, the parasite will die off, as long as no contamination occurs during the fallow time frame.
As far as your comments regarding the QT process of anything wet that can enter your main DT, yes you are correct it requires a secondary functional system.
SV
The theory about Marine Ich burning out, is that the strain ceases to multiply after 11-12 months. I read a study by Dr. Burgess where they came to this conclusion, also concluded by Leebca on Reef Sanctuary.
The fallowing period statistics is as follows as quoted by Leebca:
"I found that 6 weeks would give you the odds of about 99% success. That is, 1 in a 100 would still have a living Marine Ich parasite in the fishless tank.
At about 8 weeks, the odds are above 99.9% or less than 1 in a 1000 that there would be any living parasite in the fishless tank.
As far as research has found, the odds are about 100% or very close to that number, that there would be no living parasite in the fishless tank, when the tank is fishless for no less than 12 weeks.
I have heard of tanks still having parasites at or below 6 weeks, but so far have not heard of anyone having identified and confirmed living parasites in fishless tanks at 8 weeks, though there is a very small chance." -- end quote
So yes, the answer to your other question, is if you remove the host, the parasite will die off, as long as no contamination occurs during the fallow time frame.
As far as your comments regarding the QT process of anything wet that can enter your main DT, yes you are correct it requires a secondary functional system.
SV
lhm nole
New member
I cupramine my main display tank for 8 weeks and all fish was fine for 2 months decided to add live rock(from friends tank that had fish with ich which did not know at the time) to reseed the rock I already had and got ich again, i was one of those that thought this was not possible I was wrong so 8 more weeks of cupramine for me
ezhoops -- You are welcome! Just to clear up a little more. There are other methods of curing ich like transfer method, and medications. The two you inquired about have certain caveats as well.
If one was to take the approach to try and let the Marine Ich burnout while leaving the fishes in the main DT, you would ideally want to not add anything wet for that period of 12 months. The hope that the current fishes can survive with ich for that period of time, with no new introductions, and the life cycle would expire.
If you removed the fishes from the DT, and treated in a hospital tank the fallow tank would require to be maintained sans contamination for the fallow period. Based on the statistics you could choose how long to remain fallow, however the least amount of time would be 8 weeks, and 12 weeks would be the longest duration required.
Hope this helps.
SV
If one was to take the approach to try and let the Marine Ich burnout while leaving the fishes in the main DT, you would ideally want to not add anything wet for that period of 12 months. The hope that the current fishes can survive with ich for that period of time, with no new introductions, and the life cycle would expire.
If you removed the fishes from the DT, and treated in a hospital tank the fallow tank would require to be maintained sans contamination for the fallow period. Based on the statistics you could choose how long to remain fallow, however the least amount of time would be 8 weeks, and 12 weeks would be the longest duration required.
Hope this helps.
SV
Jacob D
New member
Not really. For the most part, nothing that will kill Crypt. can be tolerated by corals or inverts. Time in a fallow tank will though. Once all tomonts have incubated and the tomites have been released they will die in a matter of days. In theory 6 weeks should be enough time, but if you're going through all of the trouble you might as well give it 8 weeks... especially if you keep your tanks at cooler temperatures which more and more people are beginning to do.
...or you need a QT with proper lighting, which plenty of people (including me) actually have. Separate QT's for fish and corals are even better if you have the resources, space, etc...
This is great. It is possible for fish to fight it off. With a PBT it is very rare. It should be noted though, it is risky, and the specimen has to be extremely healthy to weather the storm.
Just to clear this up for the newbs, never treat a display with cupramine if you have corals or other inverts. They will not survive. If your tank is a true FOWLR this is acceptable if you never intent on keeping any type of invert. This definately would not work for me because I use cleaner shrimp. While they do not do anything to stop the cycle of ich, I do it because I think it may make the infected fish slightly more comfortable during thier battle with it. All this is simply a theory of course.
jcw
Active member
This is probably somewhere on the forum but knowing the ich's life cycle of reinfecting swimming fish and falling off and staying on the glass, how does QT guarantee the fish is ich free?
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