Fish keep on dyeing on me

[Tyrosinase]

All,

I have been having a very difficult time keeping fish in my aquarium and was thinking of placing my current fish in a quarantine tank to house and treat and let my display tank sit without fish for a while. Currently the only fish that I have been able to keep are fairy wrasses. I have attempted to keep a number of different tangs (mimics, hippo, and sailfins to name a few) but all of them seem to come down with something that makes their body look blochy and eventually stop feeding and just die. I have also lost a couple of clownfish and anthia. I am wondering if something got introduced to the tank that is affecting most fish I add to the tank. As a result I was thinking of moving my wrasses to a quarantine tank and let my display tank sit fishless. How long should the display tank sit without fish before whatever may be in the tank dies out? Should I also remove my inverts from the tank or is it okay to leave them in there? In other words, can inverts be carriers of fish diseases?

Any and all advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[francis1123]

you should leave the tank with no fish for at least 8 weeks.
inverts can carry disease, but only for a short time. fish disease will not live off of the inverts, but can be on them. i would leave them in the tank.(i mention this to point out a new coral is just as capable of bringing in disease as a new fish)
it sounds like you have some sort of external fungus/bacteria taking place in your tank. your fairy wrasses are most likely not affected due to the way their skin slimes. running fishless for a while is a good idea.
good luck.

 

[wooden_reefer]

All,

I have been having a very difficult time keeping fish in my aquarium and was thinking of placing my current fish in a quarantine tank to house and treat and let my display tank sit without fish for a while. Currently the only fish that I have been able to keep are fairy wrasses. I have attempted to keep a number of different tangs (mimics, hippo, and sailfins to name a few) but all of them seem to come down with something that makes their body look blochy and eventually stop feeding and just die. I have also lost a couple of clownfish and anthia. I am wondering if something got introduced to the tank that is affecting most fish I add to the tank. As a result I was thinking of moving my wrasses to a quarantine tank and let my display tank sit fishless. How long should the display tank sit without fish before whatever may be in the tank dies out? Should I also remove my inverts from the tank or is it okay to leave them in there? In other words, can inverts be carriers of fish diseases?

Any and all advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Learn about the UV. The correct application (size and flow rate etc) and purposes. UV is useful in reducing the incidents external bacterial infection, though not so much cure after infection.

And then learn about QT in general.

The first step toward successful QT is a very well cycled medium of filtration in QT. Use the seed and waste method, rather than any gradual method, to cycle the QT or the medium intended for QT. The first step toward effective QT is the freedom from worry about ammonia, in general, though not always.

 

[krowleey]

Learn about the UV. The correct application (size and flow rate etc) and purposes. UV is useful in reducing the incidents external bacterial infection, though not so much cure after infection.

And then learn about QT in general.

The first step toward successful QT is a very well cycled medium of filtration in QT. Use the seed and waste method, rather than any gradual method, to cycle the QT or the medium intended for QT. The first step toward effective QT is the freedom from worry about ammonia, in general, though not always.

the worrying of ammonia has nothing to do with an effective QT. You can do like the majority and monitor, or even use a ammonia badge and do water changes, it really isn't difficult. i say the first step toward effective QT is setting up the QT to put these sick fish into.

 

[Tyrosinase]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Today I got a tank and will be setting it up fairly quickly. I have a sponge/pad that has been sitting in my sump that I was going to be using to try to help with the filtration. I was also planning on using water from my display tank, is this a good idea or not? Also, what would you use to treat the fish? From the reading that I have been doing it seems like prazipro and cupramine are what a lot of people seem to be using to treat fish. Is there something else that I should be looking at to treat my fish? Also can these medications be used at the same time? My LFS today was suggesting that I use Kent Marine's Rx-P, does anyone here have any experience with this product? They didn't have any cupramine in stock so they were suggesting I use the Kent Marine product. As I have not read anything about it I decided to just wait on buying it and will probably visit other LFS until I can find some cupramine.

I was also planning on doing weekly water changes, at least, to try and help with the water quality. What percentage of the water should I be looking at changing when I do the water changes?

Once again, thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.

 

[loverreef]

Sorry to read about your loss.

I would strongly recommend a UV. I was having issues keeping fish until I added a UV at my lfs suggestion. Since they knew I had one that was not hooked up it was not about the sell.

If you are going to move the fish to their own tank are you just going to have water in there or you moving live rock also?

If no live rock I would just give fresh salt water in the new tank. You should not have spikes from die off since there should be nothing in there to die off. Just make sure you have the same temp in both tanks before moving fish.

With no fish in the main tank you can cycle through new water pretty quick. Since you have 8 weeks to wait I would look at maybe a 30% water change the first two weeks. Third and fourth week 20% and the last four weeks 10%.

I find 10% weekly water changes works best for myself.

 

[krowleey]

i would perform hypo salinity treatment, it's safe for the fish and copper can cause problems. i have fish in hypo now, and i do a nice large water change every other day to keep my water quality up, and adjust PH everyday when needed.

 

[wooden_reefer]

the worrying of ammonia has nothing to do with an effective QT. You can do like the majority and monitor, or even use a ammonia badge and do water changes, it really isn't difficult. i say the first step toward effective QT is setting up the QT to put these sick fish into.

Why do people still insist on debating on the obvious?

Why would you want to monitor ammonia when you don't have to?

The success of QT, which requires a long duration, has a lot to do with the willingness to comply, which in turn depends on the ease of application.

You can monitor all you can, but ammonia is very toxic to fish. Monitoring does nothing to remove low levels of ammonia. How much water and how frequently do you need to change water? Some book suggest 0.1 ppm as OK. OK is just that, OK. You do not know the long term effect of low level exposure.

I cannot image how to QT if I had to do water change for eight or more weeks. My back will hurt and the saltwater could cost more than the fish.

I seldom need to change water during QT.

The freedom from worry from ammonia accumulation is the ABSOLUTE key to effective and long QT.

 

[krowleey]

Why do people still insist on debating on the obvious?

Why would you want to monitor ammonia when you don't have to?

The success of QT, which requires a long duration, has a lot to do with the willingness to comply, which in turn depends on the ease of application.

You can monitor all you can, but ammonia is very toxic to fish. Monitoring does nothing to remove low levels of ammonia. How much water and how frequently do you need to change water? Some book suggest 0.1 ppm as OK. OK is just that, OK. You do not know the long term effect of low level exposure.

I cannot image how to QT if I had to do water change for eight or more weeks. My back will hurt and the saltwater could cost more than the fish.

I seldom need to change water during QT.

The freedom from worry from ammonia accumulation is the ABSOLUTE key to effective and long QT.

sure if you QT with no treatment that may work for you. if you perform treatments you will have to do water changes. if you perform water changes as a routine, you wont have ammonia problems and your water quality will be much better than not doing them. the freedom of curing fish from parasites is the ABSOLUTE key to effective and long QT. if you perform hyposalinity, the salt used is very low, and the stress level for the fish is low. This isn't a debate, there are numerous articles written on this very subject, all it takes is the time and energy to take care of your pets properly, without being lazy.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"sure if you QT with no treatment that may work for you. if you perform treatments you will have to do water changes."

No.

Only a few drugs that is unavoidable will harm nitrification bacteria, and only to varying degrees. I have not used a drug that will gravely harm nitrification bacteria for quite some time.

Most important is that copper at levels to treat ich does not have a significant impact on nitrification. Eight weeks against ich. Otherwise, QT to eradicate ich in fish would have been far less effective. For me, ich is history. I likely will never have a single case of ich ever again.

With antibiotics, one has to be much more careful. Kanamycin, neomycin and erythromycin will depress nitrification but will not wipe out nitrification bacteria. You will get significant nitrite but little ammonia. You may need to change some water if you use any of these antibiotics. This is still FAR better than having no nitrification at all. Chloromycetin will wipe out nitrification bacteria.

The first line of defense against external bacteria infection is the correct use of UV. I have to use antibiotics far less often after proper use of UV in QT. Often I do not have to use any antibiotics. UV will degrade antibiotics however.

 

[Tyrosinase]

I have read a number of threads recently where people use different methods to quarantine and treat their fish. I was not intending to use live rock in my quarantine tank, just pieces of PVC to give the fish a place to hide. I was going to be using a hang of the back filter that has a sponge/pad that has been sitting in my sump. I was also going to be doing regular water changes. I usually do a 10% water change on my display tank on a weekly basis, so I don't think it will be that much more effort for me to do an extra (or even a couple of extra) waterchanges a week. I was thinking of using cupramine to treat the fish for ich but now I am wondering if I should just not use hyposalinity.

What SG should I set my saltwater to? Also, how long do the fish have to stay in hypo in order for it to be effective against ich? Additionally, can I use prazipro while the fish are in hypo or should I do one at a time? (I am thinking of using prazopro just in case I have flukes in my tank.) Is there anything else that I should be looking at as far as medication goes? As I really have no idea what could be cauisng my fish to die I really don't know what I should be treating with. Right now I do know that I do have ich but don't know what else is in the tank that is causing the fish I mentioned above to last no more than a couple of weeks in my tank before they stop feeding and die. When I first get the fish I make sure that they are feeding well at the LFS. Once in my tank they feed well for a while, then one day they stop eating and are usually dead a day or two later.

Does my plan of attack sound okay? From what I have been reading it seems like there are a lot of different ways to skin this cat but if you think that I am doing something horribly wrong please let me know.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"I was also going to be doing regular water changes. I usually do a 10% water change on my display tank on a weekly basis, so I don't think it will be that much more effort for me to do an extra (or even a couple of extra) waterchanges a week. I was thinking of using cupramine to treat the fish for ich but now I am wondering if I should just not use hyposalinity."

WC in DT and WC in QT are two different things.

If you have no nitrification and you have to do WC in QT, how much do you have to change and how often?

10%?

Would 0.45 ppm N ammonia be really less toxic than 0.5 ppm?

In WC for QT without nitrification, how much water to change is not as simple. May be 100% is called for at times. Decay of poops and uneaten food is not linear with time.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Cycling for the medium intended for QT is very very very easy, but you need to plan in advance.

Planning to QT without very robust nitrification is extremely foolish.

 

[Tyrosinase]

wooden reefer,

Can you please give me a detailed description of your quarantine procedures? I am not 100% sure I really understand what you mean when you say "Cycling for the medium intended for QT" and "use the seed and waste method". Would the sponge/pad that I am going to be using in my HOB filter not be enough to provide nitrification? I was hopping to be able to add alittle of both worlds by having the HOB filter provide nitrification with the seeded sponge/pad and helping along by doing water changes.

As I mentioned before, there seem to be a lot of different methods to run a QT. I have read of people keeping and treating fish very successfully in quarantine tanks that don't seem to have any means of nitrification, unless they are not making mention of it. I will admit that I am new to quarantining and it really doesn't help me much when there are so many different ways of keeping a QT and when the differnt methods are not really explained in great detail.

I think I understand krowleey's and loverreefs suggested method to run a QT but really don't understand the method that you are suggesting to me.

 

[wooden_reefer]

wooden reefer,

Can you please give me a detailed description of your quarantine procedures? I am not 100% sure I really understand what you mean when you say "Cycling for the medium intended for QT" and "use the seed and waste method". Would the sponge/pad that I am going to be using in my HOB filter not be enough to provide nitrification? I was hopping to be able to add alittle of both worlds by having the HOB filter provide nitrification with the seeded sponge/pad and helping along by doing water changes.

As I mentioned before, there seem to be a lot of different methods to run a QT. I have read of people keeping and treating fish very successfully in quarantine tanks that don't seem to have any means of nitrification, unless they are not making mention of it. I will admit that I am new to quarantining and it really doesn't help me much when there are so many different ways of keeping a QT and when the differnt methods are not really explained in great detail.

I think I understand krowleey's and loverreefs suggested method to run a QT but really don't understand the method that you are suggesting to me.

First, why wouldn't nitrification be a very good thing in QT? Why do you think other method of removing ammonia in QT be as good? I think this should be very obvious. If there is a way to remove ammonia without much work, why would you not want it? Do you enjoy water change for eight weeks?

Cycling is very very very easy, especially if you cycle from dead filter material. How did you cycle for your DT? Did you use any gradual method using fish or any very slow generation of ammonia? Don't

All nitrification bacteria need to grow are the bacteria themselves, ammonia source, circulation and gaseous exchange. This is very easy. You can do it in the QT itself, if possible when there is no livestock waiting to be treated, or you can cycle the medium in a separate container. The source of ammonia can be decaying protein, urine, or any ammonium salt, such as ammonium chloride.

You can use a HOT power filter box with a rectagular plastic container, or a canister filter , use polyester floss as medium. Add bacteria and waste ammonia source. You can very easily create a very well-cycled medium that can handle many fish in QT and still will have no ammonia at all.

Try to get away from the concept of cycling a tank; rather, think of cycling a medium intended for a tank. This is more flexible. First, nearly all bacteria adhere to the substrate so a medium can be transferred as long as the water parameters are close enough. Second, you do not have to associate water quality after cycling with the quality of the water you cycle with, which can be high in nitrate etc.

A sponge is good if it is large, or you can use several stacked high. Wet-dry setup, dripping water over a medium, is the best but entirely submerged setup will work well also.

I have a more durable setup as far as the medium goes. I use crushed coral or oyster shell wrapped in tightly stretched nylon to form balls the size of large oranges. I can therefore stack them up to drip water over them. With just a dozen of such balls and thorough cycling, I can handle a lot of bioload in Qt or anywhere. You can use a simpler setup for medium at first.

 

[krowleey]

"sure if you QT with no treatment that may work for you. if you perform treatments you will have to do water changes."

No.

Only a few drugs that is unavoidable will harm nitrification bacteria, and only to varying degrees. I have not used a drug that will gravely harm nitrification bacteria for quite some time.

Most important is that copper at levels to treat ich does not have a significant impact on nitrification. Eight weeks against ich. Otherwise, QT to eradicate ich in fish would have been far less effective. For me, ich is history. I likely will never have a single case of ich ever again.

With antibiotics, one has to be much more careful. Kanamycin, neomycin and erythromycin will depress nitrification but will not wipe out nitrification bacteria. You will get significant nitrite but little ammonia. You may need to change some water if you use any of these antibiotics. This is still FAR better than having no nitrification at all. Chloromycetin will wipe out nitrification bacteria.

The first line of defense against external bacteria infection is the correct use of UV. I have to use antibiotics far less often after proper use of UV in QT. Often I do not have to use any antibiotics. UV will degrade antibiotics however.

just because you go against the grain doesn't mean that is the best advice to give to people especially people new to QT. experts say to do a large water change every 2-3 days regardless if your QT is cycled. why you ask?

NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. . .Some hobbyist don't understand this part about the QT. Since there is no skimmer and no carbon running, the water still gets polluted even when no ammonia or nitrites are detected. Because of this, even if the biological filter is running properly and no ammonia and no nitrites are detected, the hobbyist must still make a large water change every two or three days (depending on how many fish you are treating) to keep down high concentrations of organics, nitrates, and other pollutants. DO THIS.

this is from leebca on another site, and i believe this is the advice i would follow. DON'T be lazy!!! not doing water changes because you have some bacteria is just pure laziness and extremely unfair to your pets. and bad advice to give people.

 

[wooden_reefer]

NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. . .Some hobbyist don't understand this part about the QT. Since there is no skimmer and no carbon running, the water still gets polluted even when no ammonia or nitrites are detected. Because of this, even if the biological filter is running properly and no ammonia and no nitrites are detected, the hobbyist must still make a large water change every two or three days (depending on how many fish you are treating) to keep down high concentrations of organics, nitrates, and other pollutants. DO THIS.

.

First, QT is different in that even eight weeks is short in comparison to DT, organic accumulation is not significant for one or two fish in QT. And if there are many fish in QT, I would change some water in the middle.

Second, you are not addressing the danger of ammonia. It is acute and is far more toxic than any organic accumulation.

If you think organics should be removed, you can do some water change in QT as you would for DT. In DT, you remove 25% of the organics by 25% water change, for example. However, ammonia is very toxic in QT, it has to be removed and better not by WC but by bacterial activity whenever possible. With WC, you can never hope to remove even most of the ammonia. 50% WC removes 50% of the ammonia at best, as ammonia generation is not all by excretion and is often not linearly with time due to decay.

To plan to remove ammonia by water change is an atrocious idea in terms of efficiency and effectiveness, athough in a bind with no choice this is what one should do. One never plans to remove ammonia by WC, it is very foolish.

If your do not have nitrification in QT, your water change needs will be vastly different than in DT.

I suggest that you really think about the issue.

 

[Kieth71]

I have a 55g qt that i use that is bare bottom with only pvc.I treat all my fish for ich and internal parasites regardless if i see it or not.I run an aquaclear 70 on this tank and have one powerhead and one heater.I change 16g every week that fish are in the tank.I never have problems with ammonia and i have used maracyn two and furan two in the past as well for diffrent situations.I run carbon when no medication is in the tank and when it has medication the only filter is the sponge in the hang on back filter.I place a new sponge on top of the seeded sponge to seed the new one and throw away the old sponge after 3 weeks.This is my routine and it has worked well for me.The key is not having to worry about ammonia as fish are intolerent of it and should not be subjected to it.This i feel is where people go wrong when they qt.They are more often then not setting up last second qt systems rather then having a qt up and running at all times.

 

[RBU1]

First, why wouldn't nitrification be a very good thing in QT? Why do you think other method of removing ammonia in QT be as good? I think this should be very obvious. If there is a way to remove ammonia without much work, why would you not want it? Do you enjoy water change for eight weeks?

Cycling is very very very easy, especially if you cycle from dead filter material. How did you cycle for your DT? Did you use any gradual method using fish or any very slow generation of ammonia? Don't

All nitrification bacteria need to grow are the bacteria themselves, ammonia source, circulation and gaseous exchange. This is very easy. You can do it in the QT itself, if possible when there is no livestock waiting to be treated, or you can cycle the medium in a separate container. The source of ammonia can be decaying protein, urine, or any ammonium salt, such as ammonium chloride.

You can use a HOT power filter box with a rectagular plastic container, or a canister filter , use polyester floss as medium. Add bacteria and waste ammonia source. You can very easily create a very well-cycled medium that can handle many fish in QT and still will have no ammonia at all.

Try to get away from the concept of cycling a tank; rather, think of cycling a medium intended for a tank. This is more flexible. First, nearly all bacteria adhere to the substrate so a medium can be transferred as long as the water parameters are close enough. Second, you do not have to associate water quality after cycling with the quality of the water you cycle with, which can be high in nitrate etc.

A sponge is good if it is large, or you can use several stacked high. Wet-dry setup, dripping water over a medium, is the best but entirely submerged setup will work well also.

I have a more durable setup as far as the medium goes. I use crushed coral or oyster shell wrapped in tightly stretched nylon to form balls the size of large oranges. I can therefore stack them up to drip water over them. With just a dozen of such balls and thorough cycling, I can handle a lot of bioload in Qt or anywhere. You can use a simpler setup for medium at first.

What is the difference between theses balls of crushed coral you make versus bio-balls? Basically all you are doing is creating an environment for the bacteria to colonize. Same thing is achieved with the bio-balls.

 

[wooden_reefer]

First, regular water change in DT is a standard procedure. The purpose is partly to remove organics and nitrate etc.

Second, cycling for the DT is also acknowledged necessity. Ammonia is known to be highly toxic. Why would ammonia not be equally toxic in QT? If you say you want to accept some ammonia as inevitable in QT, why is ammonia not inevitable in DT. Why won't you also accept low level of ammonia in DT? This makes no sense.

You add the two together, why would it not be completely obvious that it is highly desirabe for the QT to resemble the DT in material ways and as much as possible?

Why are there people would still insist on saying that nitrification is not highly desirable in QT? Some people want to argue against the totally obvious.

Two misconceptions:

1. cycling is hard

2. most drugs affect nitrification bacteria.

If you remove these misconceptions, why wouldn't the desirability of cycling very well for QT be totally and immediately obvious?

If you think removing nitrate and inorgaincs is important, just do some water change in QT as you would for DT. You cannot hope to remove as much ammonia by WC as by bacterial activity even if you do much more WC for QT than you do for DT.