Fish not surviving tank transfer method

[andy01748]

Based on lack of any advice, seems nothing can be done for this fish, and it is a matter of time until it dies.

I feel cursed by this hobby, having been in it only for a year! What can go wrong, seems to go wrong. Many experts here at RC are strong proponents of TTM, and the vast majority have great success with it. Except for the posters in this thread, use of newly mixed saltwater doesn't seem to be raised as a potential problem using TTM. I don't recall reading any recommendations that Amquel be added to freshly mixed water to treat any potentially present ammonia, only on day 2 or day 3 to neutralize ammonia generated by the fish.

 

[firemountain]

I am doing the TTM for the second time as we speak. I would ditch the LR to combat ammonia. For that I buy and use a big sponge made the the Aquaclear 110....cut it into 4 equal pieces, and leave it in my sump for minimum of 6 weeks. Each sponge piece is used for each tank transfer, and then throw away when I clean the tank. I buy the throw away cheap airstones that are also thrown away at each tank transfer. On day 2 of the TTM, I wil add some Prime to combat any ammonia that may creep due to fish waste or feedings.

I use 2 10g tanks and have two Eheim Jägers heaters, set exactly the same temp. I blacked out the bottom, left, right, and back of the tanks with black vinyl, to minimize reflections make the fish feel safe.

For salt...I mix up one big batch of IO...to cover all of the water I will need for the TTM, and let it mature for at least 2 days. Once a tank is cleaned, and let air dry for 24 hours, it's filled with saltwater, heated, and then aerated before the fish is moved into the new tank. Once the fish is moved into quarantine, I give it 2 weeks, then treat with Prazipro, and then observe for another 4 weeks.

I use 2 PVC elbows in each tank for hiding spaces. This is my 2nd time doing the TTM, and I have to say, I think it's easy to implement and the best way to go. Don't give up on it.

 

[andy01748]

Might be worth asking in the Reef Chemistry section.

Lots of discussion already on RC on ammonia and mixing saltwater, but nothing I see as definitive. This recent thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2436670 discusses mixing saltwater. I personally have done 25% water changes using salt out of the same bucket of IO with no problems noted. Some of the water in these changes was used within 3 hours of mixing (like some of the posters) where mixing time is just long enough to completely dissolve the salt and heat to tank temperature. Seems the need to age mixed saltwater is only if it will be used at 100% (as in TTM) but doesn't seem necessary if adding to an existing system?

Was it just TTM you were having problems not aging the new saltwater, or did you also notice problems during routine water changes?

 

[Deinonych]

Was it just TTM you were having problems not aging the new saltwater, or did you also notice problems during routine water changes?

Only during TTM.

 

[tylersarah]

Additionally, a 2 hour drip acclimation to the tank transfer container is too long. Once you open the shipping bag there's about a half hour window before the ammonia build up becomes dangerous.

 

[andy01748]

Only during TTM.

When I'm ready to try again, I think I'll go with DT water for TTM and replace the DT water with the new water.

 

[Nina51]

I am doing the TTM for the second time as we speak. I would ditch the LR to combat ammonia. For that I buy and use a big sponge made the the Aquaclear 110....cut it into 4 equal pieces, and leave it in my sump for minimum of 6 weeks. Each sponge piece is used for each tank transfer, and then throw away when I clean the tank. I buy the throw away cheap airstones that are also thrown away at each tank transfer. On day 2 of the TTM, I wil add some Prime to combat any ammonia that may creep due to fish waste or feedings.

I use 2 10g tanks and have two Eheim Jägers heaters, set exactly the same temp. I blacked out the bottom, left, right, and back of the tanks with black vinyl, to minimize reflections make the fish feel safe.

For salt...I mix up one big batch of IO...to cover all of the water I will need for the TTM, and let it mature for at least 2 days. Once a tank is cleaned, and let air dry for 24 hours, it's filled with saltwater, heated, and then aerated before the fish is moved into the new tank. Once the fish is moved into quarantine, I give it 2 weeks, then treat with Prazipro, and then observe for another 4 weeks.

I use 2 PVC elbows in each tank for hiding spaces. This is my 2nd time doing the TTM, and I have to say, I think it's easy to implement and the best way to go. Don't give up on it.

i could have written that ^. only differences are that i didn't black out the glass and i have not yet treated any fish in qt with meds. i observe for 4-6 weeks and then they go into my dt. i'm nervous about using meds. all of my fish have come from LA/DD so i'm pretty satisfied that they are healthy.

i not only toss the airstones, i also throw away the tubing.

 

[TangySushi]

My red head solon fairy wrasse did the same thing. Looked fine and was eating before the first tank transfer. But by the third TT he was laying with labored breathing, stopped eating and didn't make it long after the last tank transfer. Hope you have better luck then I did with him

 

[andy01748]

My red head solon fairy wrasse did the same thing. Looked fine and was eating before the first tank transfer. But by the third TT he was laying with labored breathing, stopped eating and didn't make it long after the last tank transfer. Hope you have better luck then I did with him

Unfortunately I don't have much hope, as this wrasse appears to be following the same path as my first as well as yours.

 

[firemountain]

i could have written that ^. only differences are that i didn't black out the glass and i have not yet treated any fish in qt with meds. i observe for 4-6 weeks and then they go into my dt. i'm nervous about using meds. all of my fish have come from LA/DD so i'm pretty satisfied that they are healthy.

i not only toss the airstones, i also throw away the tubing.

Yeah....I toss the tubing as well....forgot to add that. I was a bit nervous about using meds at first, but I read such great success from guys here that I opted to try it. I heard that Prazipro sometimes suppresses the appetite, but my clown pair ate,with no problem, and didn't notice anything differently. Hence..I will always prophylactically treat with Prazipro.

 

[Nina51]

yeah, i may have to rethink that. i have some prazi in my stash of stuff. i have a vrolik's wrasse in qt right now, got him about a month ago. he will be my last addition and once he's in my dt, i'm going cruise control where i'll be able to sit back and just watch my tank w/o wondering what to add next.

 

[andy01748]

Hence..I will always prophylactically treat with Prazipro.

This is why I feel cursed by this hobby. It is universally accepted that Prazipro is an extremely safe chemical. At my first recent failed attempt at TTM, I was treating both a flame angel and a wrasse. The wrasse seemed to start going downhill after swimming and eating on the 1st day, but the flame angel appeared to tolerate the TTM very well. The flame angel continued to swim and eat even though the wrasse seemed to impacted by what is being attributed to new saltwater syndrome by the responses in this thread.

On a Tuesday night I did the first transfer after 3 days in the first tank. The flame angel looked good, unlike the wrasse. The following morning, about 12 hours after this first transfer, same status, with the flame angel having no problem swimming around, eating Mysis soaked in Selcon. The wrasse was lying on the bottom and wouldn't eat. I then dosed Prazipro as recommended for the second transfer tank. The tank was well aerated, and I added the Prazipro slowly to the output from the HOB filter I was using for circulation. This is the only change made that morning. When I checked 15 minutes later the wrasse was the same, but the flame angel was curled on its side lying on the bottom of the tank breathing very rapidly. It was dead within 3 hours. The wrasse remained the same, and its condition didn't seem any worse after Prazipro addition, although it continued its decline over the next couple of days.

In researching what may have happened, the only explanation I could find was the flame angel had so many parasites in its gills that when the Prazipro hit them, they died, released from the gills, leaving holes, causing bleeding/hemorrhaging in its gills.

Go figure. I had to be one of the rare instances where Prazipro had a negative effect! I can't see how the rapid decline of the flame angel can be attributed to anything but the Prazipro addition.

 

[Spar]

I can't see how the rapid decline of the flame angel can be attributed to anything but the Prazipro addition.

Also keep in mind that some fish just don't make it. FWIW, I have tried QT'ing two different flame angels in the past, one last week. Neither made it. I am getting another one today to try yet again. They just seem to be overly sensitive to change in general. Wrasses are very similar. Albeit, I had a trio of Flame Wrasses that made it just fine through TTM.

Maybe switch to a more hardy fish for your next couple TTM attempts. Something in the lines of Bangaii Cardinalfish, Foxface Rabbitfish, or some hardy Tang's (Yellow, as example). If anything happens to those in QT, very likely something procedural is going on.

 

[andy01748]

I also think it is bad luck on my part! If something is OK 99% of the time (a very good rate), then its not OK one in a hundred times, and I think I happened to be that one in a hundred with the flame angel! It is like the reverse of some of the many 'miracle' ich cures some people rave about. If its works only 10% of the time, and you are in that 10%, consider yourself lucky, but it will fail 90% of the time, and therefore it can't be considered an effective remedy.

 

[andy01748]

Also keep in mind that some fish just don't make it. FWIW, I have tried QT'ing two different flame angels in the past, one last week. Neither made it.

With a typical mortality rate of about 20% just at the LFS (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23293935&postcount=27) along with many deaths after purchase, including by experienced people such as yourself, I can see why where many new people give up on this hobby within a year (which I recall reading somewhere.)

I'm not ready to give up yet, but as someone into saltwater for only a year (and out of fish keeping for decades prior) I will admit my initial conservative estimate of the financial and emotional costs of this hobby were way low!

 

[Spar]

very common experience unfortunately. the rewards make it all worth it once things start to click though. i went through crap for the first two years before suddenly things started going my way.

my biggest woe in the hobby is with the inevitable Murphy's Law. i rarely have to deal with equipment failure, but on each of my last two week+ long vacations, with family watching over my tank, of course some equipment failed. auto-top off stopped working once, then one of my return pumps the next time... will always be something in this hobby unfortunately!

 

[andy01748]

Update: Against my expectations, the wrasse is still alive. Still not moving or eating, but breathing seems less labored. Not sure if this is from weakness or actual slight improvement. Anyone one had a fish recover from what seems to be systematic shock (as opposed to a disease) after 7 days of seemingly being at death's door? Change of a recovery are 1%, 0.1%, 0%?

 

[Pprice01]

Wow. I am disappointed that the TTM isn't going well for you.

I really wish the LFS would just raise their prices and perform TTM and prophylactic medication treatments. They could have separate systems with different price models to cover their costs.

I wonder what the mortality rate of TTM is compared to treating with copper?

I am having some issues with my tank and am wondering what the best thing to do is.

Good luck with your future TTM tries!

 

[firemountain]

I then dosed Prazipro as recommended for the second transfer tank. The tank was well aerated, and I added the Prazipro slowly to the output from the HOB filter I was using for circulation. This is the only change made that morning. When I checked 15 minutes later the wrasse was the same, but the flame angel was curled on its side lying on the bottom of the tank breathing very rapidly. It was dead within 3 hours. The wrasse remained the same, and its condition didn't seem any worse after Prazipro addition, although it continued its decline over the next couple of days.

In researching what may have happened, the only explanation I could find was the flame angel had so many parasites in its gills that when the Prazipro hit them, they died, released from the gills, leaving holes, causing bleeding/hemorrhaging in its gills.

Go figure. I had to be one of the rare instances where Prazipro had a negative effect! I can't see how the rapid decline of the flame angel can be attributed to anything but the Prazipro addition.

Sorry...I should have a been a bit more clear. I dose Prazipro prophylactically, once the fish has completed the TTM, and is in my QT for at least a full week, after it's been eating good. Prazipro had been know to suppress the appetite on some fish, so I didn't want to do that during the TTM. I know a lot of guys dose Prazipro during TTM with good succes, but I opted to wait.

I am new at this too, but did a ton of reading,asking questions, and have tweaked the means in which I implelent the TTM to make it more streamlined.

 

[hogfanreefer]

I had some similar problems when I first started TT. Some of the guys here suggested that I change to using DT water. I did that and haven't lost a single fish yet. I did TT on 3 pyramid butterflies after failing twice before with this fish in a cycled QT.

Honestly I think the health of the fish on arrival is the most important thing and that's not always obvious when they first arrive. For me however, using DT water seemed to help. Don't know for sure if it was that or the quality of livestock but 7 fish in a row have made it safely through TT, observation (with Prazipro) and in to my DT.