Fish parasite immune to hypo

[travis32]

I have a powder brown tang that during hypo had white worms pop out of it's skin. There were probably close to hundred on each side of it's body. After 7 weeks of hypo I moved it to the display where it seems to be thriving. It continuously eats algae off the rocks nad glass, eats nori, I feed a combination of selcon soaked brine, mysis, formula 1 and 2, PE mysis, etc. as well as soaking the nori in selcon.

The tang goes nuts for the food. Doesn't scratch, I have a cleaner wrasse that's constantly munching and picking stuff off the tang probably close to 8-10 hours a day 7 days a week while the lights are on.

It initially looks like ich, then little white worms pop out. So far no other fish show signs of the infection.

My initial plan is to continue with selcon soaked food. (I don't think I would change this even if everything were perfectly healthy). And see what happens. I've seen multiple cycles of this now. Probably close to a cycle of "erupting worms" every 6 - 8 weeks.

It concerns me, but the tang has thrived so well in the 125g display that I hate to change anything. The worms are gross though, not to mention what it must feel like to have a couple hundred worms popping out of your skin...

They're completely immune to hypo. Any suggestions on treatment, is it best to leave it or will the worms eventually kill the tang?

The skin doesn't show signs of abrasions at least with the naked eye. There tons of tiny miniscule holes that they pop out of, but a couple weeks later the tang seems completely healed up. I've had the tang about 4-5 months now.



thoughts?

 

[MrTuskfish]

First, I would have never put this fish into your DT; every fish in your system probably has the same parasite by now. I'll bet that if you give this fish a FW dip in a bucket, you'll see the "worms" fall off in hordes. I'm guessing flukes, Praziquantel (Prazi-Pro) is one good treatment.

 

[Chris27]

Hypo is good for crypt, but that's about it....Other parasites and such are better treated with copper or formalin.

What you describe does in fact sound like flukes. I could be wrong, but prazi may actually be reef safe so to speak...in that it won't kill off snails, crabs, shrimp or corals....can't say any worms would make it through though. At any rate, prizi is best used in food, it's more effective then simply dumping it in the tank.

 

[travis32]

I don't have much for fan worms, other than what grew in, one very large peanute worm, which is kinda gross anyways.. I never asked for him, and am not sure where it came from.

Do flukes kill, or are they like a parasite that's annoying, but nothing harmful. Remember there are beneficial parasites. They seem to be few and far between...

Anyways I don't think I'd see a cycle or anything from worms dieing off.. If that was all thats affected. I don't like treating a display, but, I've had horrible luck with fish... 2 clowns that died of HLLE. I had put all my fish through hypo, including the tang as proactive treatment. And here I don't end up with Crypt, but, flukes.. Grr..

So where can I get prazi. I had gotten general cure from marine depot, but, I didn't like the effects it had on the tang. It went ballistic in QT with general cure.

 

[geaux xman]

I think your best treatment for this is prazipro too.

Just look it up on amazon and get it shipped. I had went ahead and got a big 16oz bottle for about $30 plus shipping.

 

[travis32]

Thanks guys, So with Prazi pro, I generally fill agallon ziplock bag 1/4 - 1/6 full. of RODI water, throw in some cubes of mysis, brine, formula 1 and 2, coral frenzy, etc.

let it sit for a couple hours to thaw and allow selcon to soak in. Can I do the same thing with Prazipro, and would it require the full dosage, if soaking the food in it? vs general dosing in the water column? It's a 125g Display with 30 gallon sump, so, If I can administer with soaking food in it, that'd be awesome. The PBT with the parasites is by far the pig of the tank and eats most of the frozen food, so it would definately get the largest dose during each feeding.

 

[LargeAngels]

Prazipro should not be added to food as a medication. The dose should be added to the water as described on the bottle.

 

[Chris27]

Prazipro should not be added to food as a medication. The dose should be added to the water as described on the bottle.

When you give your dog a de-wormer, do you just toss it in the water bowl and hope for the best, or do you wrap it up in a piece of Virginia Ham.....

Sure the bottle says to dump it in the water, but as with any med, delivery by food is much more effective. Antibiotics are no different, Seachem also tell's you to dose the water, however they work that much better when added to food.

Adding 1/8 teaspoon to that bag o food should do the trick, after a few days you should be good.

 

[travis32]

I agree. By comparison, it would be like dosing antibiotics through the air we breathe. There's a reason pills is one of the most common ways of administering medicine.

Not to mention since it's a display, it may even limit the negative impact of the medication on worms, etc.. I appreciate your candid advice Chris as always way to think out of the box, but based on reality.

 

[LargeAngels]

Yes, but with pills its a precise dose that is administered in the proper way. Do we know Prazipro is absorbed into the food and that each fish will get the exact dose needed to be affective? Until Hikari comes out and say's "Just add the meds to the fish food cause its the same as adding it to the water" this all seems silly to me.

 

[MrTuskfish]

When you give your dog a de-wormer, do you just toss it in the water bowl and hope for the best, or do you wrap it up in a piece of Virginia Ham.....

Sure the bottle says to dump it in the water, but as with any med, delivery by food is much more effective. Antibiotics are no different, Seachem also tell's you to dose the water, however they work that much better when added to food.

Adding 1/8 teaspoon to that bag o food should do the trick, after a few days you should be good.

The de-wormer and ham? Sure. But i sure wouldn't give my dog his topical flea med internally. I can imagine how tough it is for makers of fish meds to find a proper delivery system. But oral administration of a med made for the water column (with your noted exceptions) could be a real problem. Stomach acids will destroy many meds, (like the injections people need) or the dosage will be incredibly high. Like the druggies who get all the painkiller out of a time-release patch and take it at once.I sure would never do this with Prazi. If I remember, (my age, you know), there are uncountable worms that are called flukes. They are most dangerous in the gills and prazi should (and does) a great job on them in that area. A fish's gills are also great at getting other meds from the water into the fish, which (I'm quite sure) is why Prazi also works on internal worm parasites.

 

[Chris27]

Praziquantel is a med. that is intended to be ingested, not absorbed, unlike a topical flea prevention which is designed for external use.

Here is a good link for the med.....this is the active ingredient in Prazi Pro.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000474/

 

[MrTuskfish]

Yeah, Prazaiquantel has been around for a long time. But the mfg of Prazi-Pro has developed a delivery system that uses the water column. I'd think dosing would be educated guessing at best, but what ever works. There are a lot of meds that have been modified to be taken orally, through the skin, or even (gak!) in suppository form. Many meds are also modified to get them through the digestive system intact and I wonder if the Prazi-Pro form of Praziquante can handle it.I think you are probably right and it can. I'm sure dosage would vary considerably too, depending on the delivery method. I've used a form of Praziquantel, with great success, for years in the water column
; but if it works orally---great. I imagine that figuring out how to get a med into a fish drives the manufactures nuts.
BTW, I see you're from Virginia Beach. Why have so many of the real good Fla keys fishing guides come from there?

 

[Chris27]

Well there you have it, some good debate without anyone getting an infraction.....even with the term suppository thrown in there...it's a good day!

travis32....no mater how you approach it, except for the suppository route which may be interesting to watch someone try, prazi should work either way for you. Just get treating that little guy, they are beautiful fish, and def. a great addition to any reef.

 

[travis32]

Thanks guys, I wanted to watch you guys debate it out, That was more entertaining. probably not more entertaining than a fish suppository though. That, will not be attempted, I can guarantee that.

Unfortunate for the fish, it's poor timing... I'm going to a conference In Florida next week. I have a fellow reefer checking the tank, but, I figure it's not a good idea to start testing a dosing regimen in the display when someone isn't around to routinely check it to see if things are o.k. or not.

So, I will have to order the medication next week sometime and dose when I get back.

I agree with both arguements and see two things that will help me make the decision:

1. Selcon soaked shrimp seems to offer the fish nutrition, so shrimp must be somewhat absorbant of stuff.. Or soaking in vitamins is pointless!!

2. Secondly, I assume the absorbtion rate wouldn't be maximumm amount, so some will make it into the water column.. That's a given.

3. Dosing is not an exact science even for pharmacies. I had a doctor tell me I need to be taking 4 Ibuprofin 4 times a day. That's roughly 2 times the maximum dosage on the bottle. Dosages are guidelines, not exact for every individual. The same would be true for fish.

4. My powderbrown is a pig and will get 90% of the shrimp so i'd be more afraid of overdosing... Which can be controlled by how much shrimp I feed and where I feed it. However, there again I won't know how much shrimp will be enough... I'm assuming the excess medication would be passed by the fish. Kinda like overdosing on antibiotics or ibuprofin. What's not used will get removed eventually.

In the end doing something will be better than nothing. And, dosing via food, would reduce how much Prazi pro I need to use. Dosing for 125g gallons I assume would be a lot of medication if dosed in the water column.

I'll try with food first for a few days. I'll document the effects. And if the worms persist, I will change the dosing medium to the water column.

However, it'll be at least 1 to 2 weeks before I begin this...

 

[MrTuskfish]

I don't feed krill often, but freeze-dried krill, cut to appropriate size, really seems to hold a lot of vitamins. Dosing vitamins is not as vital as dosing meds; but after reading Chris' comments, I'll bet there's plenty of leeway with any fish med, especially water column dosed meds. That is certainly the case with Cupramine; there is a wide range between toxic to the enemy and toxic to the fish. BTW, the ibuprofen you're taking is exactly the same as a prescription dose. Many human meds have a smaller OTC dosage than the Doctor-prescribed dosage. I admit to being a serial abuser of Chinese Viagra, so I've stumbled across a lot of this type of info.

 

[travis32]

TMI MrTuskfish, TMI.

Yeah I have a whole bottle of Freeze dried krill. My RBTA eats the Krill whole..... No cutting up. I'm not dosing the RBTA though. lol.

Oh and btw... Just a quick update on the worms. There was a worm hanging off a small cerinth shell yesterday. It was all wiggly attached to the snail shell and the snail was on the glass... Would flukes attach to snails?