Fish Racism?

SoloChromis

New member
Kind of a joke title there, but it is something that has aggravated me from the beginning of my venture into this hobby. People LOVE to make blanket statements regarding the behavior and temperament of groups of fish. For example, all angels/butterflies you should *never* attempt adding to a reef. While there is a significant number of species that would more than likely pose problems in your average reef tank, it really does depend a lot on the species. Angels of the genus Holacanthus (queen, blue, rock beauty) are a much greater threat than say, an angel of the genus Chaetodontoplus (blueline, black velvet, scribbled). There are also coral/inverts that are more likely to be picked on by certain species, or genera of angels. Regal angels (Pygoplites diacanthus) for example, are not an uncommon sight in larger reef tanks, but *have* been noted to occasionally pick on zoanthids if anything. Genicanthus angels are planktonic feeders, meaning they feed on small particulates in the water column, making them the least risky genera to consider adding to your reef tank.
"dAmSeLs ArE eViL!!!" - something you hear from what seems to be the majority. There is a *lot* of undeserved hate directed towards damselfish in this hobby, due to the fact that a large portion of us start out our first tanks with them. The most common and affordable species are highly aggressive - blue, three/four stripe, domino, blue velvet, and bowtie. People buy them because they're small, brightly colored, practically bullet proof, and very cheap, especially when compared to other SW fish, so newbies will then add them to their new tank, allowing that fish to establish the tank as their territory, which they will viciously defend against "intruders" that are added later. They're also very quick on their "feet" and can wedge themselves in the smallest of crevices, making it a frustrating, and time consuming task to remove them. Then many times these people will swear off damsels as a whole, and go around telling their tales of the "boogie monster damselfish", warning everyone to stay far away from them. The truth of it is, there are plenty of other species of damsels out there that will prove to be a model citizen in the average community tank, can be kept in small groups, and some will even spawn in your tank. Like I said regarding the angels, some genera of damselfish are much more aggressive than others. Damsels within the genus Dascyllus are notorious for being ruthless, unforgiving tyrants, whereas Pomacentrus damsels, are generally very peaceful, and can be kept in groups. I myself have an azure damsel in my 120g and the only fish he has ever given grief was another azure I tried to add recently (I gave the assault victim to my aunt). Other than that, he minds his own business, and is even chased by my royal gramma from time to time. I also kept a springeri a while back, and he was never a problem either (very cool patterns on that species, I plan on getting another soon). Personally, I love damsels, they're small, hardy as hell, long lived and great dither fish IME. This rumor that all damsels are aquatic spawns of Hitler is especially aggravating to me, because I find most fish stores in my area will practically laugh in my face when I ask if they'd be willing to order in some of the more unusual species, with some claiming "we don't sell damsels". I finally managed to come across a Bleeker's damsel (a beautiful, uncommon and relatively docile fish) that wasn't even labeled in the tank, and when I asked how much he was the owner told me "as little as you want to pay". I'm still on a mission to track down a Tracey's, tuxedo and starcki :facepalm:

"You can NEVER mix tangs"... something an employee at a LFS told my aunt when I was helping her shop for her reef tank, and something I have heard for as long as I've been in this hobby. Although there IS some truth to this, you first must consider the size of the tank, whether or not the tangs you're trying to mix share the same genus, and how aggressive the species are. A powder blue with a powder brown for example, is not going to work, especially in a more modest sized tank, due to their similar shape and territorial disposition. My aunt and uncle have a yellow and kole sharing their 90g and they never quarrel at all, and are buddies from what Ive seen. All in all, make sure your tank is large enough to house the multiple tangs, preferably add them simultaneously, and try to make sure they don't look too similar.

Moral of the story is, don't judge an entire group of fishes based on a bad experience you had with 1-2 individual species. Keep an open mind people :bum:
 
think of it more as species profiling. A cat acts differently than a bird and that's just a fact. In my opinion it is absolutely necessary.

You think damsels are great and have had success and that's great! On average people won't have success unless they follow the "general knowledge." If people ignored it, everyone would be trying to mix sharks in with their reef tanks, hoping to get the one vegetarian shark out there that would go well with their small colorful fish and inverts. It might work, but many many fish would die needlessly as people tried to buck the conventional wisdom.

I have a couple acanthurus in my tank that I have had for a few years and never should have put together. They're in there now, but if one were to die, I don't know that I would try to replace it with the same fish. It barely works and I would not recommend it to anyone.
 
I think it basically comes down to your education about fish. Of course their are always exception to the rules but those are basics that it's easier to explain to new people when first getting started. People spend months working on stocking lists as they progress in the hobbie but new people will sometime just pick fish that catch their eye without much thought of fish compatibility.
 
I agree. It is important to relate individual experiences but we need to look at the science, of which there is very little done for our aquatic animals compared to our dogs or cats, before extrapolating conclusions that would apply globally. But considering my experiences with human nature I'm afraid there will always be fear mongers among us preaching their own personal brand ignorance.
 
think of it more as species profiling. A cat acts differently than a bird and that's just a fact. In my opinion it is absolutely necessary.

You think damsels are great and have had success and that's great! On average people won't have success unless they follow the "general knowledge." If people ignored it, everyone would be trying to mix sharks in with their reef tanks, hoping to get the one vegetarian shark out there that would go well with their small colorful fish and inverts. It might work, but many many fish would die needlessly as people tried to buck the conventional wisdom.

I have a couple acanthurus in my tank that I have had for a few years and never should have put together. They're in there now, but if one were to die, I don't know that I would try to replace it with the same fish. It barely works and I would not recommend it to anyone.

I get your point, but I was speaking more about specific species, as opposed to specific individuals. For example, a green moray eel, is more than likely going to destroy a reef tank, but a zebra moray won't harm a thing (outside of non-hermit crabs, possibly). So it's more just allowing every species within a group of fish to have their own profile regarding their temperament, diet, activity level, sociability etc. I agree, when dealing with a newbie it may be simpler just to give them the general advice, but IME the vast majority of LFS employees and even other hobbyists I meet, will argue that what they are saying is fact, and there is no damsel out there worth getting, no angel that will behave itself in a reef, no 2 tangs that can be mixed harmoniously etc. Again, just speaking about species, not so much individuals (Im sure theres a gentle giant of a sohal out there somewhere :lmao: ).
 
I think it basically comes down to your education about fish. Of course their are always exception to the rules but those are basics that it's easier to explain to new people when first getting started. People spend months working on stocking lists as they progress in the hobbie but new people will sometime just pick fish that catch their eye without much thought of fish compatibility.

I understand, but when I worked at a LFS I would always make sure to give the customer as close to what they originally wanted as possible, as long as it would mingle well in their tank. If someone wanted a blue damsel, I'd point them in the direction of the yellowtails, azures and springeri, if someone wanted a lemonpeel angel for their reef, I'd show them some of the more notoriously reef-friendly dwarf angels (flame, coral beauty, cherub). If they wanted a purple/strawberry dottyback, instead of warding them away from ALL mean, shrimp bashing, fish chasing dottybacks, I would show them the orchids, which more times than not, they liked better anyways. I just think it's important to have a deep understanding of all the species you are likely to come across, and working your advice around that instead of scaring people away to save time or trouble. This hobby is all about patience and research :beer:
 
Just stumbled upon this thread and thought the OP's argument summed up the situation beautifully and deserved a bump.
 
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