Flame Angel color fade
- Thread starter bohlke
- Start date
reefshadow
New member
Are you feeding an antibiotic food, or did you treat the whole tank?
The problem with treating the whole tank is that it kills all your biological filtration that the live rock and sand was loaded with. So you will usually see a worstening of parameters because you have no biological filtration. You should test particularily for nitrite and ammonia, keep doing the water changes. I also do not believe that it is nearly as effective as feeding it to the fish.
Your lfs gave you bad advice on using this product in your display imo.
I would not use the second dose and you may be in for a ride keeping up while the biofiltration is reestablished.
The problem with treating the whole tank is that it kills all your biological filtration that the live rock and sand was loaded with. So you will usually see a worstening of parameters because you have no biological filtration. You should test particularily for nitrite and ammonia, keep doing the water changes. I also do not believe that it is nearly as effective as feeding it to the fish.
Your lfs gave you bad advice on using this product in your display imo.
I would not use the second dose and you may be in for a ride keeping up while the biofiltration is reestablished.
bohlke
PBITAWA
The whole tank 
Things look ok though I am hoping that I can get the water quality back under control. Again I am not sure how quickly I can do water changes without adding more stress to the fish. 25% every day seems good but it might not be enough. Here are my results after tonights water change:
Salinity 1.022
Nitrate less than 80ppm (mg/l)
Nitrite < .5 ppm (mg/l)
Alkalinity ppm >180 < 300
ph 7.8
Ammonia 0
temp 78
I am going to get some Angel Formula from LFS to add to the mix.
Things look ok though I am hoping that I can get the water quality back under control. Again I am not sure how quickly I can do water changes without adding more stress to the fish. 25% every day seems good but it might not be enough. Here are my results after tonights water change:Salinity 1.022
Nitrate less than 80ppm (mg/l)
Nitrite < .5 ppm (mg/l)
Alkalinity ppm >180 < 300
ph 7.8
Ammonia 0
temp 78
I am going to get some Angel Formula from LFS to add to the mix.
I agree. I would stop treating the tank and just do water changes to get the quality of the water up. I'm not a big fan of chemical treatments, especially using them to treat a whole tank. Do large water changes (maybe 25% weekly) to get your ammonia and nitrate levels down, continue to feed the fish high quality foods like those suggested in previous posts and watch the flame closely to see if he's improving. Try this for a few weeks and see how it goes.
Good luck!
Good luck!
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
In my opinion your LFS should try & make amends by providing you a bunch of new LR - And an RO/DI system (or water) if you don't already have one. Their advice to you was ridiculous.
If this was my tank - I'd do some immediate drastic water changes.
Like 75% one day. On that day I'd remove the fish & get LFS to keep them or put them in a tank & control the params by water changes as in quarantine.
Then 75% again the next day.
Right after the second change I'd add the new live rock - if possible I'd double my live rock - or see if they'll trade in your old LR for an equal amount of new.
Then I'd give my tank a hard cycle again & start adding fish back one a week or so depending on size.
Your person at the LFS was v-e-r-y irresponsible. If they are members of your local reef club, maybe you could use that as leverage to get cooperation if need be. What they told you to do is tank crashing advice
PS Maybe my plan would be overkill??- I'm no expert on what results with tossing antibiotic in a biosystem - I'm just telling you what I 'd do if somebody'd thrown that stuff in my tank
If this was my tank - I'd do some immediate drastic water changes.
Like 75% one day. On that day I'd remove the fish & get LFS to keep them or put them in a tank & control the params by water changes as in quarantine.
Then 75% again the next day.
Right after the second change I'd add the new live rock - if possible I'd double my live rock - or see if they'll trade in your old LR for an equal amount of new.
Then I'd give my tank a hard cycle again & start adding fish back one a week or so depending on size.
Your person at the LFS was v-e-r-y irresponsible. If they are members of your local reef club, maybe you could use that as leverage to get cooperation if need be. What they told you to do is tank crashing advice
PS Maybe my plan would be overkill??- I'm no expert on what results with tossing antibiotic in a biosystem - I'm just telling you what I 'd do if somebody'd thrown that stuff in my tank
bohlke
PBITAWA
I am a little irritated at LFS, however all my fish look better today though its hard to say what made them happier. I did however kill my two cleaner shrimp, which is surprising as erythro claims its safe for all inverts. I am almost sure my peppermint shrimp is dead as well but its hard to tell as its hides a bit. I am going to try to get them to replace my shrimp, we will see how it goes. I am going to do another water change this afternoon and the one more at night. Hopefully this will get my water quality back to normal.
Why would I want to replace my live rock? I have about 40 lbs of it in the tank now.
Why would I want to replace my live rock? I have about 40 lbs of it in the tank now.
Pandora
Premium Member
This has probably already been mentioned, but the second picture you showed doesn't illustrate angel maturity, that is a sick/under the weather fish. I know you already started antibiotics. I would not have recommended this in your main tank, because of the effects on biofiltration... I think the original rec was for antibiotic soaked food, which is not as bad (but would not be as effective for systemic disease; this is better for targetting GI disease, and even then, I don't generally recommend it... as it kills off ordinary gut flora. I only recommend med-soaked food in the case of antiparasitics, not antibiotics). I personally would not do water changes much over 50%. You do want to do serial water changes, but doing really large ones can also cause too much instability.
Erythromycin is in general not directly toxic to inverts at low dosage (though I don't think Mardel is right for being so quick to broadcast "SAFE", since it does cause stress even at low dosages... the main reason is that erythro can be used to treat RTN in corals); the effects you see are secondary to the biofiltration going down and the water chemistry being off. If you test your water again, I'd bet you see a spike or the remnants of one. I would NEVER encourage antibiotics (or generally, really any sort of intense medication) in an established display tank with LR & all sorts of inverts. It is a pain to deal with the aftermath. Much easier to do all this in a separate hospital tank.
Erythromycin is in general not directly toxic to inverts at low dosage (though I don't think Mardel is right for being so quick to broadcast "SAFE", since it does cause stress even at low dosages... the main reason is that erythro can be used to treat RTN in corals); the effects you see are secondary to the biofiltration going down and the water chemistry being off. If you test your water again, I'd bet you see a spike or the remnants of one. I would NEVER encourage antibiotics (or generally, really any sort of intense medication) in an established display tank with LR & all sorts of inverts. It is a pain to deal with the aftermath. Much easier to do all this in a separate hospital tank.
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
Live rock = biological filtration. Your live rock is host to the bacteria that processes nutrients into nitrates. Without it ammonia accumulates to a level that kills your fish. If you have other filtration like a biowheel -- that too performs the same function.
Since it is the bacteria that perform these processes & the function of an antibiotic like erythromycin is to kill bacteria ----I'd be concerned that it would kill the bacteria in/on your live rock. It will grow back, but since the LFS gave you this absurd advice, it seems to me they should replace your rock. Not being sure how long the bacteria would take to grow back & if the rock would be just "as good" as it was before, it just seems like replacing it would be preferable.
And as mentioned above ordinarily more than a 50% water change would be too much, but my suggestion involved restarting your tank. Again maybe I'm overreacting - it's just how I would handle it. Every little thing about LR (read the threads on cooking it for example) is not yet known - I'd just want to start over. Sorry if I'm being an alarmist.
gibbswagon
New member
variety is the spice of life
LivingTropicals
New member
Mine too, really likes the small pellets.
RichConley
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6724474#post6724474 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dragonet_Dude
Try feeding it a wide variety of foods. Also, try angelfish foods containing sponge. Good Luck!
Large angels need lots of sponge, dwarfs don't eat much in the wild. They need lots of Veggies.
RichConley
New member
If hes not seeing Ammonia/Nitrite spikes, then replacing the rock is simply a waste of hard earned $$. I'd agree with stopping the anti-bacterial though. Do some water changes, big but not huge, and make sure all your parameters are in check.
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
Yes you are right, I am jumping the gun -- it's only been about 2 days now I think..... so I guess bohlke should keep a vigil on his parameters
bohlke
PBITAWA
I did another 25% water change today, results are:
Salinity 1.0215
Nitrate 40ppm (mg/l)
Nitrite 0 ppm (mg/l)
Alkalinity ppm 300
ph 7.8
Ammonia 0
temp 78
How important is it to get my ph up to 8?
It looks like the peppermint shrip is fine but both cleaners are dead. I am not too upset with LFS anymore as they did suggest I do this in a QT, advice that I ignored. They even said you know a 5 gal bucket is a fine QT, more advice I ignored. The fish look much better but still this could be due to the improved water quality who knows.
The fish like the forumal one and two but they dont seem to eat as much (less than a cube makes sense if its better food). They finish the prime reef and the marine cusine. Does anyone have any advice on getting the frozen formula 2 to break up more in water? I am doing another water change tomorrow I will post the results.
Salinity 1.0215
Nitrate 40ppm (mg/l)
Nitrite 0 ppm (mg/l)
Alkalinity ppm 300
ph 7.8
Ammonia 0
temp 78
How important is it to get my ph up to 8?
It looks like the peppermint shrip is fine but both cleaners are dead. I am not too upset with LFS anymore as they did suggest I do this in a QT, advice that I ignored. They even said you know a 5 gal bucket is a fine QT, more advice I ignored. The fish look much better but still this could be due to the improved water quality who knows.
The fish like the forumal one and two but they dont seem to eat as much (less than a cube makes sense if its better food). They finish the prime reef and the marine cusine. Does anyone have any advice on getting the frozen formula 2 to break up more in water? I am doing another water change tomorrow I will post the results.
bohlke
PBITAWA
Here is a pic of the flame now, its getting better and it appears that most of the body slime is gone. If I treat it again I will do it in a QT, most likely I will just keep giving it better food and water and hope that does the trick.
That was the best pic I could get, too bad the top of the castle is in the way
I did another 25% water change today, results are:
Salinity 1.022
Nitrate 40ppm (mg/l)
Nitrite 0 ppm (mg/l)
Alkalinity ppm 300
ph 7.8
Ammonia < .25 ppm
temp 78
Does anyone have an opinion on my ph numbers? Should it be above 8 ideally?
That was the best pic I could get, too bad the top of the castle is in the way
I did another 25% water change today, results are:
Salinity 1.022
Nitrate 40ppm (mg/l)
Nitrite 0 ppm (mg/l)
Alkalinity ppm 300
ph 7.8
Ammonia < .25 ppm
temp 78
Does anyone have an opinion on my ph numbers? Should it be above 8 ideally?
bohlke
PBITAWA
hmm the water from my system is:
Nitrate < 20ppm
Nitrite 0
Alkalinity 120
pH < 7.8
So I guess that makes sense. I'll do one more water change with RO water from LFS and see if that can brings up the pH. Would it be a good idea in the future to add a chemical to the water I prepare for the water changes to bring up the pH or is that difficult to adjust?
Nitrate < 20ppm
Nitrite 0
Alkalinity 120
pH < 7.8
So I guess that makes sense. I'll do one more water change with RO water from LFS and see if that can brings up the pH. Would it be a good idea in the future to add a chemical to the water I prepare for the water changes to bring up the pH or is that difficult to adjust?
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
Are you adding buffer?
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