flame angel

They are just fish, thats what US FAWS told me when I was doing sicence fair when I was 10, I aked for a "permit" to do "research" thay told me if you buy them you can do whatever you want with them.

Whats ethical regarding fish? Same we ask at the restaurant to be cooked when is still alive,or the undersize fish that that die on decks of trawling ships before being released or the lobsters and crabs that get trown in boiling water? If they could talk like Kathy says they would ask for the little glass box.

Ed
 
"Why Kathy and Luis jumped in to defend this kind of thinking is way beyond me - but it was obvious that Kathy jumped in without even reading the thread."

I really don't think kathy, Luis, me, or most anyone is truely "defending" anyone whole heartedly. We are more along the lines of if you want to talk about ethics and humanity, talk about it in the breeding forum if you'd like, but START A NEW THREAD about it. This thread is/was supposed to be about the experimentation and day-to-day recordings of a Flame pair that may breed one day. That is what we are here to see. Keep up all the ethics stuff and soon no one is going to be checking out the thread anymore...
Tom
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8287877#post8287877 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TomRep
"Why Kathy and Luis jumped in to defend this kind of thinking is way beyond me - but it was obvious that Kathy jumped in without even reading the thread."

I really don't think kathy, Luis, me, or most anyone is truely "defending" anyone whole heartedly. We are more along the lines of if you want to talk about ethics and humanity, talk about it in the breeding forum if you'd like, but START A NEW THREAD about it. This thread is/was supposed to be about the experimentation and day-to-day recordings of a Flame pair that may breed one day. That is what we are here to see. Keep up all the ethics stuff and soon no one is going to be checking out the thread anymore...
Tom
Click to expand...
lol I think you also need to go read the initial post before you go SHOUTING about it :D But FWIW I kept the 'ethics" stuff off Matt's log thread - I was actually trying to help on that thread
 
Actually, my bad. I just went back and saw the first thread. I thought I was in Matt's Flame Angel thread. I'm sorry about this.
Tom
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8288564#post8288564 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TomRep
Actually, my bad. I just went back and saw the first thread. I thought I was in Matt's Flame Angel thread. I'm sorry about this.
Tom
Click to expand...
Don't worry, that's what I figured :D
 
Bottom line, this is a Fish Breeding Forum, as it says in the Heading.

posts should be related to that, or posted elsewhere.

Ethics discussions are subjective, I have no problem with them, but THEY DONT BELONG HERE !!

and Marie, mark me as shouting there.

You like to push buttons, you do it politely , but you do it, you know full well what you are doing,

I dont know why you do it, but I wish that you would do it elsewhere. You obviously are a good photographer and have a very nice tank, but all of your posts here seem to take others to task for what they are doing. Who made you their arbiter ?

All the other posts relate to different peoples logs/reports on breeding/trys of reef fish,

Matt is doing significant work with his small setup, he is making progress and sharing that with whoever wants to receive it. He deserves credit, not being picked at. No one could blame him for deciding to hell with it and not sharing.

As I said before, I have been up to my neck lately with PETA and HSUS crap, and I am VERY touchy about seeing anything smelling of them here.

In short, do what you consider ethical, share as you wish, but dont take others to task for what they are doing, particularly when they are trying to do ground work on breeding new species.

I amNOT a moderator here, just expressing my own views.
 
Bottom line, this is a Fish Breeding Forum, as it says in the Heading.

posts should be related to that, or posted elsewhere
Click to expand...

I didn't start this thread - I merely found it doing a title search for "angel"

Ethics discussions are subjective, I have no problem with them, but THEY DONT BELONG HERE !!
Click to expand...
Here we go again? Ethics and fish breeding are mutually exclusive?

You like to push buttons, you do it politely , but you do it, you know full well what you are doing,

I dont know why you do it, but I wish that you would do it elsewhere. You obviously are a good photographer and have a very nice tank, but all of your posts here seem to take others to task for what they are doing. Who made you their arbiter ?
Click to expand...
Wow you got a lot of nerve or should I use your word "hutzpah" to make an accusation like that - I don't like to push anybody's buttons, as you say. You really ought to go read more of my posts because I can find a whole lot of overly patient & generous ones. Out of 3000 can you find some that seem more argumentative than helpful, maybe so.

All the other posts relate to different peoples logs/reports on breeding/trys of reef fish,
Click to expand...
So I can't make an objection? My posts have been on the topic of this thread. There is so much confusion with you experts about the thread topic :confused: All I did was tell someone that a 24g is too small for a flame angel pair :confused:

Matt is doing significant work with his small setup, he is making progress and sharing that with whoever wants to receive it. He deserves credit, not being picked at. No one could blame him for deciding to hell with it and not sharing.
Click to expand...
Where is he hiding the significance of this "work"? - He doesn't even seem to have done any research on the species he's working with. :confused: I tried post information about the species and he wasn't even interested. (on his log thread)

As I said before, I have been up to my neck lately with PETA and HSUS crap, and I am VERY touchy about seeing anything smelling of them here.
Click to expand...
I don't see how that's relevant to this thread, you should take this to the lounge.

In short, do what you consider ethical, share as you wish, but dont take others to task for what they are doing, particularly when they are trying to do ground work on breeding new species.
Click to expand...
All I did was tell someone that a 24g is too small for a flame angel pair.

"Groundwork"? I can't wait for the final report!

Nevertheless - groundwork or not, you have no business telling anyone who should or should't be taken to task - I can see why you're so familiar with the word "hutzpah". I was off this thread, by the way, until your post - Matt & I had worked things out without your "help". It is your "button pushing" which resulted in further posting by me on this thread.

Shame you didn't notice that.
 
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You know, I apologize. We've let this go on longer than we should have and I know I handled this incorrectly, but I suppose I just felt so compelled to defend myself due to the fact that I was attacked publicly. I still stand by my opinions, but I am going to step away from this argument, because our opinions differ and we obviously aren't going to come to terms. The original poster has gotten his answer, so there's really no point in this going on. I'll see you guys around, and hope that in the future we can all handle things a bit more properly
 
Good thing it is over:) It was an interesting thread after all.Hope no other newcomer kicks the beehive again!:p
The lounge is the forum where off topic matters and Byzantine discussions are more appreciated.
And talking about Byzantine,you know that one of their most famous topic of discussion,often cited as an exercise in futility,was the sex of angels.Which brings us back to the sexual dimorphism of flame angels.(Hope nobody noticed my efforts to push this thread back to track ;))
Watching Marie´s pair (the full pic,not the avatar),it is clear that the female has many vertical bars,though perhaps narrower and paler than the male´s.
So we must disregard the number of bars as a sex indicator.
The other remaining character is the width of the blue banners at the rear edge of dorsal and anal fins.This could be a real difference.
So next time I see a smallish flame,I´ll buy it,no matter how many stripes it has.
And Jake,I never saw actual spawning,just foreplay.Most of the eggs were infertile,probably because of the lack of a tall tank.Mine are only 40cm,less the substrate.
 
Thanks so much, Angel*fish! Way to take the high road!

"Kicking the beehive", wonderful expression!

I feel much better now that we can get back to a discussion where we all win.
 
Luis I am wondering if the better way to get a pair or breeding group might be to buy 3 juveniles and let them develop to see if a male emerges ?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8295680#post8295680 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jake levi
Luis I am wondering if the better way to get a pair or breeding group might be to buy 3 juveniles and let them develop to see if a male emerges ?
Click to expand...
Could be slow,they´re no fast growers.
Faster is to put a large and a medium/small one separated by a clear wall for a couple of weeks and then remove the partition when you can watch to see everything worksfine.Plus lots of rockwork!;)
 
male
Centropyge_loriculusAQ.jpg
[/IMG]

female
Centropyge_loricula_MARQ.jpg
[/IMG]

pretty clear sexual dimorphism.
hope this helps.
 
Still another flyfisher!:D
Dimorphism here is more than obvious,it is EXTREME!:eek1:
Those fish are yours?
And yet the blue banners look pretty much the same:confused:
 
Luis for many of us finding a stock of Flames at a dealers is going to be all of a lot, and same size, but you're probably right, quicker to add two different sized ones at the same time. I actually only have one dealer in driving distance I trust. But he might be able to get a couple lots in .

Those are extreme color patterns, I havent seen any close to either !
 
I have a very great respect & appreciation for Robert Fenner and his contributions to the hobby. So please don't take it the wrong way when I say I'm just not sure that his WWM site is really intended to be relied on for scientific study -

Anyway my guess is that those photos don't show sexual dichromatism - I think they represent the dichromatism of fish from different regions. No doubt these regional differences account for some of the confusion in sexing flame angels.

As Luis said the blue banners are pronounced in both fish. And that is part of the basis for my opinion ----which has no study to back it. :p Anyway I think both those fish are males.

I agree also, Luis that if you find a flame only 1 inch long from nose to end of tail, it's worth going for. If you add it at the same time with a male that's a full inch longer, you will be amazed how beautifully they immediately take to each other. I think this is the fastest way to get a spawning pair.

And as for the spawning ---I assume everybody here knows about temperature... flames spawn when the waters are warmer. I'd have to double check - but I think 82-83 F is what you want.

It actually has recently been shown that dwarf angels (actually one dwarf angel - C.ferrugatus) can revert back from male to female - but this seems like it would be the slowest and most pain-in-the-neck way to achieve a pair.

As the collectors get the message that there is a market for the smaller juveniles their availability should increase - at least I sure hope so - I can't seem to beg, borrow or steal a tiny Herald's.
 
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