Flame Angelfish (Centropyge loricula) Breeding Log?!

[mwp]

OK, yes...Flame Angels were on more than just a regular sale, they were a steal, and they are also Renee's FAVORITE fish! Her tank is relatively "low" on fish (we had a big crash last fall and hadn't added back in), and well, it's also unproductive breeding wise!

So we're now the owners of 2 Flame Anglefish! One around 1.25-1.5", and 1 closer to 2.5-2.75". They were added to the tank at the same time on 9-6, it's been 8 days. As of yesterday, here's the tank and the best pics I've gotten so far of our new charges:

Tank:

Little Flame:

Big Flame:

While I've titled this thread as "breeding log" I think that's very "optimistic" at this point...for now it's more of a "pairing log". If we ever get them to spawn, that'll be a huge accomplishment in itself.

So it's been 8 days. Our little flame angel is definitely submissive and the larger one dominating (I think it's even aggressive enough to deal with "Momma", our big mean Percula Clown).

2 days in the little Flame showed up with a chunk out of it's tail, which is slowly regrowing.

Today, a 2nd chunk appeared.

Overall, there hasn't been any MAJOR aggression...no little flame angel cowering in the corner shredded to bits (my main concern).

In general, the larger Flame is constantly on the move, whereas the little flame is spending a lot of time weaving between the rockwork, staying one step ahead of the big flame. Occasionally there's a chase, but it quickly dies down as the little one has places it can swim through that the big one can't follow. During feedings, both fish are SOMETIMES out, right next to each other, the big one not worried one bit, but other times the larger flame DOES dominate the scene and chase the little one around a bit.

I *think* I did a good job in selecting two very disparately sized flames to try to pair them. So, for now, my big question to those of you who've paired them in larger tanks - how long does it take before the two stop acting like enemies and "buddy up"? I want to say it took a month or two with my GreenBanded Gobies......

That's the news for now...we're either going to end up with a pair or a very skinny little flame that'll get moved to another tank.

FWIW,

Matt

 

[aomont]

I was just going to sleep when I saw the thread title. Had to come here and check !
Good luck with them also and their tiny little mini-eggs !
Anderson.

 

[mwp]

Anderson, ordinarily I would've tried this with a smaller species, (i.e. I personally REALLY LOVE the African Flameback as well as the Carribean Pygmy) especially considering that I have only a 24 gallon nanocube to work with! Renee simply can't stand how the EYES look on the aforementioned species (with that blue ring around them)!

I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to surprise Renee with a PAIR of Flames...of course she caught on that I had some sort of ulterior motive the moment she pulled the 2nd fish out of the bag

The biggest question on my mind is whether we'll even end up with a truly mated & compatible pair in such a small tank. So far though, I'd have to say the "damage" and "bullying" done by the big Flame to the small one is really no worse/on par with what our Female Percula used to do to her mate when they were younger...keeping the finger's crossed..

Matt

 

[clownfish75]

Hi Matt

I surpos ei could add to your thread that i also as of recently about 1.5months have a pair of keyhole angelfish, i unlike matt have a much more rugged setup of the pair and keeping them.

the pair was formed with a call tot he collector, send me 2 keyholes, the biggest and smalles tyou have, this collector doesnt get imported stock so the no quarantine process was a fairly safe bet althought he not so great water qquality and the imanent attack of oodinium was a fair chance of claiming them.

the tank is a 6ft long 2ft wide 2 ft high tank, bugger all rock work a few pots and 2 waring sunrise dottybacks.

the wash up so far, is that somehow i didnt manage to kill the angelfish, which was a plesent surprise that my wate risnt that disease riddled and isnt that bad a quality. the size difference is barely 1/2 inch if that, but they seemed to get along okish to start with, the male still gives the female a hurry up, bnut thats the extent of it, did once see some funny circling behaviour.

i have been tryign to see any expansion of the abdomen but havent observed anything yet, figure this is about my only clue to imanent spawning and has always generally worked for other species.

anyone got any tips, and if matt would like i can keep the thread filled in about this pair also.

althoughi am a bit rough and ready about the fish sometimes, so i might offend some sensabilities.

Christian

 

[David M]

Matt, I once had a pair of flame angels in Q I was holding for a customer of mine, they engaged in what I call "pre-spawn" behavior even in the tiny 18 tall tank. There is a thread here somewhere with details of the activity and similar reports from others. Basically there is some chasing around and eventually the female will assume a motionless position in the open, upper water column. She curls her tail to one side as the male sort of nips or rubs at her abdomen. Then more chasing and the cycle repeats itself, nigh after night. That pair never dropped eggs that I know of but they went to a 90 gallon mixed reef so it would be hard to say.

 

[David M]

Oh hey there is also a good thread (again, somewhere ) on sexual dimorphism in Flames. I can't see it myself but others swear by it.

 

[David M]

Here 'ya go

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=696262&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

 

[mwp]

Cool, that's a lot of good info. If I used the sexing info in that thread above, we definitely have a m/f pair based on coloration notes (i.e. our larger one has more 'yellow/orange' on the flanks, more blue on the posterior edges of the dorsal and anal fin).

So far they're still tolerating each other...we'll see how things are going at the end of the month!

Frank actually has a video of Centropyge spawning on his website - http://www.rcthawaii.com/angel/2.htm - the direct link is - http://www.rcthawaii.com/assets/video2.mpg

FWIW,

Matt

 

[David M]

Holy Moly, that is just TOO cool. It's so quick! ( fish have all the luck) No, I never saw that but my guess is that what I did see was leading to it. Is there another shot of him smoking a cigarette in the corner? :smokin:

 

[jake levi]

My last experience with Flames was getting four at one time and putting them into a 75 gal reef, after a day or two of chasing things quieted down and life got on. Six mos after I had a disaster when a LOT of caulerpa(grape) imploded overnight and fouled the tank, I lost 3 of the angels.

I am planning another 75 this fall for the flames, maybe another 75 beside it with cherubs. At the moment considering a refugium under the two with chaeto. We'll see. These will also be main display tanks in the dining room.

That thread on the flames was fascinating. This site is a treasure.

 

[G13]

Just wanted to say, that is a very nice looking 24 gallon tank.

I also would like to have a pair of dwarf angels. I'll probably be getting a much smaller african flame angel to try and buddy her with the one I currently have.

 

[mwp]

I figure it's time for some updates on the Flame Pair!

First, I got sidetracked in a discussion on Flames in another thread - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=935932 - I've posted some observations there on our pair, so it's worth a read to catch up on the progress.

To sum up, to date, the pair's aggression level is on par with how our Percula Pair treated each other for the first 5-6 months or so of their coexistence. The little one's "tail chunks" (visible in the first posted picture) have pretty much grown back. The trailing edges of the dorsal and anal fin are a bit tattered, but hey, my female mandarin has looked worse.

Both fish are FAT! They pay not attention to each other when I show up with food, at least at first. After a couple minutes of feeding, the larger one does start to chase the smaller one around a bit, but both still get their fair share and then some! Keep in mind that the CLOWNFISH really DISLIKE the angels, especially now that the clownfish have started spawning. So, getting back to that "fin damage" on the little one, it could just as easily come from the clownfish protecting their nest, which is in close proximity to where the little one calls home.

Behavior wise, it is fair to say that the little one DOES try to stay out of the big one's way for the most part, although most of the time, even if the little one is activing submissively, and the larger one "has a shot", the big one still usually ignores it. Basically, I'd have to say that the larger Flame is asserting dominance over the little one but has absolutely NO designs on killing it or driving it off.

The interesting occurance behaviorly that I caught this evening was when the little one displayed it's flank to the big one (think a T positioning with the little one perpendicular to the big one), flared it's fins, and briefly quivered. The larger fish simply watched and moved on. I did not see this occur again.

Some folks on the other thread suggested that a photo journal of these two fish would be helpful, especially in documenting any sex changes (you may recall there is a bit of sexual dimorphism that has been reported in Flame Angels). To that end, looking at the pictures posted above vs. how the fish look now, there HAS been a coloration change. The larger fish has definitely "expanded" the amount of BLUE in the dorsal and anal fins. The blue at the trailing edges of the fins seems more intense. Even more so, the blue edging on the top of the dorsal and the bottom of the anal fin seems to have expanded and intensified as well.

If I have time tomorrow I'll make another attempt at getting some pictures and I probably should dig around as I know I took others in the past week or so...so I MAY actually have the "documentation" folks are looking for! Granted, these guys are far from the top priority at the moment...I have clown, mandarin and cardinalfish larvae to look after.

FWIW,

Matt

 

[G13]

This is starting to get really interesting. Any chance of you showing a pic of your true percs? They look like they are of the onyx variant, very cool.

Good Luck!

 

[mwp]

That's the most recent pic of the tank (clowns laid their 2nd batch of eggs today)...probably one of the better shots I have of the flame "pair".

Matt

 

[mwp]

BTW, there's also been another "flare", the little one displaying in front of the big one. Not sure what it's all about yet...

Matt

 

[jake levi]

So Matt
what are you planning on feeding the little guys ?? I keep searching this thread to see if anyone is discussing this.

I probably wont have any centropyge working before late winter.

 

[Angel*Fish]

Hi Matt - just ran across this thread....
In this picture you posted of the smaller flame, it looks like a male to me. That would explain the aggression you're seeing. From your description they don't sound at all like pairing flames. My experience is limited to having done this only 3 times, but I can tell you each time there was no aggression at all - just a little chasing that doesn't result in a-n-y nervousness in the smaller fish. I haven't seen anything more than slight/subtle avoidance of the male. The only shimmy-shaking I've seen was by a smaller male I introduced to a larger one (Singapore angel).

One problem with accurately observing sexual dichromatism in flames is that the photos can be deceiving. it's pretty easy in person. Another problem is the regional differences among flames. But FWIW your first photo looks like a male.


In this last photo on the other hand the smaller fish looks a little more like a female. If I'm looking at it right.....

----it seems possible you got a recent or incomplete male which is reversing. There is anecdotal evidence that this can happen, but I'm not aware of its being documented. The speculation is that if the male doesn't kill it first, it will stop "maling-up" and revert to female.

Anyway a sign they've worked things out is when you see the smaller fish appear totally confident and relaxed in the presence of the male. Yes there will be some chasing, but this doesn't make cause her to avoid bumping into him. She doesn't run like she's afraid - it's just a display. And you won't see any "side-pushing" either

Anyway - it's hard to tell from these photos, but that's what it looks like to me.

BTW The larger fish is clearly a male, no doubt

 

[Angel*Fish]

Here's an excerpt of Ocicat's post from another thread - she describes it better than I http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8263828#post8263828 describing the behavior of her recently introduced flames.

OK, guys, update: I got them! I got all three yesterday evening and went ahead and took my chances, putting them right into the main tank after acclimation. So far, 24 hours later, all seems to be as good as can be expected - no love at first sight, but no war either.

...

I have seen somewhat limited interaction between the two flames so far - it is a 6' tank and they mostly go their own ways. However I have seen them feeding off the rock within a few inches of each other, a couple of times. I have also seen the large flame give the occasional lunge at the small flame - however, he does not pursue or seem very intense about the aggression. The small flame is completely docile and rather calm about it, scooting through a small rock opening or around a corner and then relaxing immediately. She does not seem at all nervous or concerned by the large flame's presence but will just get out of the way when he goes at her. Occasionally she even appears to follow after him for a short ways.

Both flames are very active and feeding off the rocks. The large flame has within the last hour or so begun coming completely out from the rockwork and swimming in the open water. The smaller one is still keeping to the rocks. The CB is the most reclusive, and I have not seen him nearly as much as the flames, but he does make the occasional appearance.

Ocicat & I are both pairing in tanks larger than 24g however, but my guess is that's not the biggest factor, I think your small fish was an immature male. My $.02

 

[Luis A M]

Great Pics!
and a very interesting subject,sexing flames!.
Males are said to have more vertical bars and a larger blue area in the rear edge of dorsal and anal fins.
Matt´s smaller fish looks as a female,but the number of bars fits male´s description.Though they look like washed.And I think the blue area is narrower.
I am looking for a gal for my flame and passed on several lovely little ones because they were "many barred"

 

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8268438#post8268438 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Luis A M
Great Pics!
and a very interesting subject,sexing flames!.
Males are said to have more vertical bars and a larger blue area in the rear edge of dorsal and anal fins.
Matt´s smaller fish looks as a female,but the number of bars fits male´s description.Though they look like washed.And I think the blue area is narrower.
I am looking for a gal for my flame and passed on several lovely little ones because they were "many barred"

Louis, my female has more bars than my male, I believe the difference in the bars is that the female's bars are not as wide/fat as the males.