Flukes
- Thread starter Patriot54
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jjk_reef00
New member
shaking head, scratching on rocks
Best way IMO is a freshwater dip, do it in a dark bowl/ pot and you will see the white flukes fall off.
IMO, all angels should be treated for flukes before they go into the dt.
Best way IMO is a freshwater dip, do it in a dark bowl/ pot and you will see the white flukes fall off.
IMO, all angels should be treated for flukes before they go into the dt.
Texastravis
New member
Outside on the skin. Amazing all the little nooks they hide in. If a fish has flukes there is a good chance they have some on their eyes. If your fishes eyes are cloudy look closely it could be flukes.
Give the fish a good long 45 min freshwater dip (read up on fresh water dips before you do this!) the flukes on the fish will all die off falling to the bottom of the container as if it were head lice or dandruff. Although this helps the fish it will not iradicate the fluke problem from the tank because they are still in the tank. You would need to treat the tank with medication.
Give the fish a good long 45 min freshwater dip (read up on fresh water dips before you do this!) the flukes on the fish will all die off falling to the bottom of the container as if it were head lice or dandruff. Although this helps the fish it will not iradicate the fluke problem from the tank because they are still in the tank. You would need to treat the tank with medication.
Psionicdragon
New member
45 min is too risky.
As mentioned, 45 minutes is WAY too long. I've dipped fish in 10% seawater for that long, but not pure freshwater. I use a five minute dip, but I hear some people going 7 or even 10 minutes. Also, no need to worry about the water parameters of the dip water - 75 degree tap water is fine for tropical fish. You hear all sorts of things, like dechlorinating the dip water, adjusting the pH and temperature to exactly match the tank, adding calcium, adjusting the alkalinity, etc. That is all a waste of time. Why worry about stress caused by changes in those minor parameters and then toss the fish into pure freshwater that is tons more stressful? Besides, the whole idea to the dip is to shock the parasites into dropping off so you can see them. If you make conditions too similar, they just will hang tight. One additional stressor that should be controlled is light. Covering the dip container keeps the fish from jumping out, and keeps it quieter. Remember that the next option to a diagnostic FW dip is a skin scrape and a gill biopsy - just a wee bit more invasive!
Freshwater dips are a diagnostic tool only - they do not kill 100% of the flukes, and they do not kill the fluke eggs (or baby flukes if it is a live-bearing species).
I really like jjk's advice of using a dark container for the diagnostic dips. I never thought of that, I always use whatever container I have handy (usually clear or white) and then have to use a microscope to find the flukes. Next time I'll use a dark container for the contrast!
If you find flukes, you should treat with praziquantel in the QT.
Jay Hemdal
Freshwater dips are a diagnostic tool only - they do not kill 100% of the flukes, and they do not kill the fluke eggs (or baby flukes if it is a live-bearing species).
I really like jjk's advice of using a dark container for the diagnostic dips. I never thought of that, I always use whatever container I have handy (usually clear or white) and then have to use a microscope to find the flukes. Next time I'll use a dark container for the contrast!
If you find flukes, you should treat with praziquantel in the QT.
Jay Hemdal
KingwoodMarcia
New member
That's crazy. Don't worry about water parameters for FWDs!!! Never heard of that, first time for everything. Good way to add more stress to a fish and/or kill it. If I had dipped my angel in tap water, with the amount of chlorine and other crap in the water, it would have died in mins.. The city of Corpus Christi just got fined by the state for poor water, almost to bad to drink. Which got the feds down here / EPA.
I would suggest you read about FWD's on wetwebmedia and other RC threads and make up your on mind.
I did FWDs on my 12" Passer Angel. I used RO water from the store, brought up the PH with baking soda, matched temps, and airrated the water. Took all about 5-10 mins.
1st dip lasted 10 mins. It looked like snow in the bucket. 2nd day, 15min, 3rd day, 15 min, two days off, then one more 10min dip. Due to the size of the fish I could not QT him / her with the tanks I had.
I had no spread of flukes to the other fish, my Passer has been fluked free for almost 2 1/2 months. Eats like a horse and is the boss of my 325 gallon.
Do what you want man, but I had a $350.00 fish, and I spent many hrs reading up on this. Again, google it and read up about it. NEVER take just one answer or one website's advice on anything. Only you have your best interest at heart.
I don't have a dog in the fight, but I followed the advice Bob F...(can't remember last name right now, from wetwebmedia) which work for me. His adviced match most of what I read at other web sites.
Good luck and I would NEVER use tap water untreated to do FWD's.
I would suggest you read about FWD's on wetwebmedia and other RC threads and make up your on mind.
I did FWDs on my 12" Passer Angel. I used RO water from the store, brought up the PH with baking soda, matched temps, and airrated the water. Took all about 5-10 mins.
1st dip lasted 10 mins. It looked like snow in the bucket. 2nd day, 15min, 3rd day, 15 min, two days off, then one more 10min dip. Due to the size of the fish I could not QT him / her with the tanks I had.
I had no spread of flukes to the other fish, my Passer has been fluked free for almost 2 1/2 months. Eats like a horse and is the boss of my 325 gallon.
Do what you want man, but I had a $350.00 fish, and I spent many hrs reading up on this. Again, google it and read up about it. NEVER take just one answer or one website's advice on anything. Only you have your best interest at heart.
I don't have a dog in the fight, but I followed the advice Bob F...(can't remember last name right now, from wetwebmedia) which work for me. His adviced match most of what I read at other web sites.
Good luck and I would NEVER use tap water untreated to do FWD's.
Last edited:
JohnsonSBK
New member
hmm i would agree but i would think that you should still treat the tank with prozi flukes are nasty buggers and if you just treat the fish it may go away but it will always stay in the water waitting for your fish to be volnerable and then you will have a outbreak again... just my opinion, but thats what i would do.
KingwoodMarcia,
Sorry, but my statement is correct, not "crazy". I've performed freshwater dips on literally thousands of fish using all types of water over 40 years, and I would like to hear how your experience with your one passer angel refutes what I said...how do you KNOW your angel would have died in tap water - you are only guessing at that. Just because an idea has become firmly entrenched in the hobby does not make it correct.
Again, this worrying about such minor stressors such as 2 ppm chlorine and 2 points difference in pH is pointless when you are then exposing the fish to the massive stress of an osmotic dip. If you use RO water, you should buffer it, but if your tap water is higher than 50 ppm total hardness, there is no need.
Jay
Sorry, but my statement is correct, not "crazy". I've performed freshwater dips on literally thousands of fish using all types of water over 40 years, and I would like to hear how your experience with your one passer angel refutes what I said...how do you KNOW your angel would have died in tap water - you are only guessing at that. Just because an idea has become firmly entrenched in the hobby does not make it correct.
Again, this worrying about such minor stressors such as 2 ppm chlorine and 2 points difference in pH is pointless when you are then exposing the fish to the massive stress of an osmotic dip. If you use RO water, you should buffer it, but if your tap water is higher than 50 ppm total hardness, there is no need.
Jay
Landon,
No, flukes are metazoans; multicellular trematodes (worms). Some are egg-layers and some give birth to live young. Some live of the fish's skin, some live on the gills. Not every type of fluke will infect every type of fish. Unlike some other parasites, there is no intermediary host for the common external fish disease flukes, so they are able to complete their life cycle in a typical aquarium. Like Cryptocaryon, they do spend some time off of the host during their life cycle. What will kill the adult flukes will also kill the babies of the live-bearing species, so they can be controlled a bit more easily. The egg-laying types, such as Neobendenia may have eggs that are resistant to certain drugs, so you have to time out their hatching a dose the tank a second, or even a third time to get them all.
Jay Hemdal
No, flukes are metazoans; multicellular trematodes (worms). Some are egg-layers and some give birth to live young. Some live of the fish's skin, some live on the gills. Not every type of fluke will infect every type of fish. Unlike some other parasites, there is no intermediary host for the common external fish disease flukes, so they are able to complete their life cycle in a typical aquarium. Like Cryptocaryon, they do spend some time off of the host during their life cycle. What will kill the adult flukes will also kill the babies of the live-bearing species, so they can be controlled a bit more easily. The egg-laying types, such as Neobendenia may have eggs that are resistant to certain drugs, so you have to time out their hatching a dose the tank a second, or even a third time to get them all.
Jay Hemdal
RBU1
Moving on Up
I think that if people think a $13.00 bottle of Prazi is high cost they should not be in this hobby. I only needed 1oz to treat my 125 treatment tank.
KingwoodMarcia
New member
JHemdal, if you use fresh water strait from the tap good on you. Glad your water is that good. I don't even give my dogs tap water down here. Nor, would I take the chance with a $350.00 fish. I read a lot about PH shock and killing fish. Also, read about temp. as well. What if I did not warm the tap water coming out of the sink that is 56 degrees in the winter vs 78-80 in the tank. You are telling me that would have not cause extra stress on the fish, come on.
Yes, you have to buff RO water, tap water who knows, it depends on your local water district and how they treat your water. Right now you can smell the chlorine from the tap water, because the city just got fined. And you say its alright to put my fish in that!!! That's crazy!!!! No questions about it. If I smell chlorine in the water, might not want to put live animals in that, ie animals with gills?????
Not all water comes from the same source and requires different treatment procedures. It varies from city to city, state to state.
Why not just use tap water and salt mix and mix it all together for 5min, when doing my water changes!!!! Again, if your tap water is that great, you are blessed.
Again, as I stated, I did my research and took what the "experts" said to do. It worked for me. I don't think Bob over at wetwebmedia is a novice and doesn't know what he is talking about. Look at his resume. Nor did I just take what he said as fact. Used many sources. None of which said to use none treated tap water. They all had a common theme of match PH and temp. Required times in the dip????????
It doesn't take a masters degree to figure out that water from tap is cold and smells like chlorine, vs the water in the tank warm doesn't smell = no problems for the fish???
If you what to use tap water go for it. Its your fish and money.
Yes, you have to buff RO water, tap water who knows, it depends on your local water district and how they treat your water. Right now you can smell the chlorine from the tap water, because the city just got fined. And you say its alright to put my fish in that!!! That's crazy!!!! No questions about it. If I smell chlorine in the water, might not want to put live animals in that, ie animals with gills?????
Not all water comes from the same source and requires different treatment procedures. It varies from city to city, state to state.
Why not just use tap water and salt mix and mix it all together for 5min, when doing my water changes!!!! Again, if your tap water is that great, you are blessed.
Again, as I stated, I did my research and took what the "experts" said to do. It worked for me. I don't think Bob over at wetwebmedia is a novice and doesn't know what he is talking about. Look at his resume. Nor did I just take what he said as fact. Used many sources. None of which said to use none treated tap water. They all had a common theme of match PH and temp. Required times in the dip????????
It doesn't take a masters degree to figure out that water from tap is cold and smells like chlorine, vs the water in the tank warm doesn't smell = no problems for the fish???
If you what to use tap water go for it. Its your fish and money.
KingwoodMarcia
New member
And I have done more than one FWD. Some worked some did not.
KingwoodMarcia
New member
FYI,
No, I did not write this:
pH is a Measure. The symbol pH is a contraction standing for pondus Hydrogenii (=the "weight of hydrogen", the simplest element); pH is the relative measure of hydrogen ion concentration. Put another way, pH is the relative presence of H+ (Hydrogen ions) versus OH- (= Hydroxyl ions). Note when these two types of charged species get together they form an uncharged water (H2O) molecule.
You finally will understand this. In a "pure" solution of nothing but water there is a concentration of @ 10-7, that's ten to the minus seventh (0.0000001), or one in ten million molecules of water that on average have fallen apart/& are getting back together. The fancy mathematical expression for pH is that it's the negative (or one over, the reciprocal) of the logarithm (base 10) of hydrogen ion concentration, or
-log10 [H+] or 1/log10 [H+]
In our example of "pure" water this is log10 1/[H+]*. -log10 [10-7] = log10 [1/10-7] = log 10 [107] = 7
-log10 [10-7]
or the log of one over 10 to the minus seven which is a pH of 7.000. Ahhhh. Yay!
All that pH is is a measure of other "stuff" dissolved in the solution that affects (net increases/decreases) the concentration of Hydrogen (&/or Hydroxyl) ions. Making the average number of hydrogen ions greater (e.g. 10-6, 10-5, less 10 to the minus negative) means the pH is lower (!) See? Or more acidic (by definition). Going the other direction, having less concentration of H+, meaning the 10 to the minus power is more negative, denotes an alkaline, or basic condition. As an example, consider a hydrogen ion concentration of 10-8 = a concentration of 0.00000001 H+ ions, denotes a pH of 8.000. A 7.000 situation is termed a neutral pH. Makes sense to me.
Maybe one last example (or two). Let's say the hydrogen ion concentration is 10-7.8 or 0.00000078. What is this solution's pH. That's right, 7.8, like much of our beloved southwestern "liquid-rock" tap water. Note that in the above expressions the change between a pH point, let's say seven and eight represents a change of an order of magnitude, or ten times. Much like the logarithmic scale (Richter) used to describe earthquakes, a small difference in number represents a large change in hydrogen ion concentration. Going from a pH of 6.5 to 4.5 is a difference of 100 times less concentration! This is a big difference, and you should be aware and wary of the logarithmic nature of the pH scale.
I'll leave it up to the Big Editor, Don Dewey, to leave in/out mention of the upper/lower limits of dissociation of acids and bases, pH's of 0 to 14 under conditions of complete/full dissociation.
Reserve/Resistance to pH Change:
The capacity of a system to resist an upward (example 7.0 +) or downward (less than 7.0) pH is termed Alkalinity and Acidity respectively. The same quantity is in turn referred to as alkaline and acidic reserve. Read those last two sentences again, carefully. This understanding seems easily lost amongst aquarists.
In actual practice what happens is there are materials, chemicals suspended and dissolved and capable (like gravel, coral...) of dissolving (or going into solution), one's added intentionally as foods, treatments, source/tap water constituents that "fight" or resist change in pH. This is what we mean by buffering. Buffers aid/thwart efforts in changing chemistry/physics by resisting shifts (in pH in this case). This is the reason Alkalinity/Acidity tests must be applied in conjunction with simple pH, if much adjustment is needed/desired and/or you're dealing with expensive or sensitive livestock. There may be so much buffering capacity at different levels or points in the system's pH make-up that you may accidentally overshoot and drastically/tragically raise or lower the pH too much too soon. I cannot but begin to tell you how many times I've seen this happen. READ ON!
Biological Importance:
So all this being said and done, or at least written... so what? Allow me to present this pictograph:
Graph showing the relationship between pH and optimum efficiency:
100
Efficiency
(%)
0
7.0 7.2 7.4 7.6 7.8. 8.0
pH
In this graph I am trying to describe a hypothetical (but real and practical) relationship between a physiological function (like an enzyme system) efficiency and a range of pH. In the example you can see that peak efficiency is achieved only within a narrow limit, with function dropping off quickly at a slightly higher and lower pH.
This is the Real World! Fishes (& us!) are made up of these transient collections of enzyme systems; fundamentally that's what life is (at least one definition). These systems are affected (pro & con) by suitable 1) points, 2) limits & 3) slow changes in pH.
Maybe illustrating human blood pH phenomena is a good idea. Normal, acceptable range is something like 7.35 to 7.50 (pretty narrow, eh?); slightly basic. When/if you slow/stop ventilating your lungs, blood pH dips in sync. with build-up of carbon dioxide (CO2) in solution as carbonic acid. Alternatively, hyperventilating will blow off CO2, driving-up pH. Both conditions have their practical limits. Your blood has only so much buffering capacity and moderating mechanisms. At some juncture in moving your blood pH too much too fast you will stop, hopefully by ultimately only stopping doing whatever is causing the emergency shift or passing-out at which point your body will unconsciously shunt blood only to vital functions and allow restabilization.
Fish and other aquatic life are not as fortunate sometimes. Their metabolisms are often closely tied with the chemistry and physics of their surrounding medium (water). Too much, too soon shift or deviation in pH is dangerous! Fishes do have buffering mechanisms to resist these changes, especially sudden shifts in pH, but be warned! Healthy, conditioned livestock can weather such changes, but it will/does weaken them; & less-than-prepared organisms may be pushed over the edge. The challenge of ph shock may not/usually is not obvious at the time if the individuals survive, but other negative influences can/may cause their demise "mysteriously" within hours to days to weeks.
Certain events are particularly important to be on guard for pH shock; from system differences, pH adjustments, and "drift". Permit me to elaborate; I'm going to anyway.
No, I did not write this:
pH is a Measure. The symbol pH is a contraction standing for pondus Hydrogenii (=the "weight of hydrogen", the simplest element); pH is the relative measure of hydrogen ion concentration. Put another way, pH is the relative presence of H+ (Hydrogen ions) versus OH- (= Hydroxyl ions). Note when these two types of charged species get together they form an uncharged water (H2O) molecule.
You finally will understand this. In a "pure" solution of nothing but water there is a concentration of @ 10-7, that's ten to the minus seventh (0.0000001), or one in ten million molecules of water that on average have fallen apart/& are getting back together. The fancy mathematical expression for pH is that it's the negative (or one over, the reciprocal) of the logarithm (base 10) of hydrogen ion concentration, or
-log10 [H+] or 1/log10 [H+]
In our example of "pure" water this is log10 1/[H+]*. -log10 [10-7] = log10 [1/10-7] = log 10 [107] = 7
-log10 [10-7]
or the log of one over 10 to the minus seven which is a pH of 7.000. Ahhhh. Yay!
All that pH is is a measure of other "stuff" dissolved in the solution that affects (net increases/decreases) the concentration of Hydrogen (&/or Hydroxyl) ions. Making the average number of hydrogen ions greater (e.g. 10-6, 10-5, less 10 to the minus negative) means the pH is lower (!) See? Or more acidic (by definition). Going the other direction, having less concentration of H+, meaning the 10 to the minus power is more negative, denotes an alkaline, or basic condition. As an example, consider a hydrogen ion concentration of 10-8 = a concentration of 0.00000001 H+ ions, denotes a pH of 8.000. A 7.000 situation is termed a neutral pH. Makes sense to me.
Maybe one last example (or two). Let's say the hydrogen ion concentration is 10-7.8 or 0.00000078. What is this solution's pH. That's right, 7.8, like much of our beloved southwestern "liquid-rock" tap water. Note that in the above expressions the change between a pH point, let's say seven and eight represents a change of an order of magnitude, or ten times. Much like the logarithmic scale (Richter) used to describe earthquakes, a small difference in number represents a large change in hydrogen ion concentration. Going from a pH of 6.5 to 4.5 is a difference of 100 times less concentration! This is a big difference, and you should be aware and wary of the logarithmic nature of the pH scale.
I'll leave it up to the Big Editor, Don Dewey, to leave in/out mention of the upper/lower limits of dissociation of acids and bases, pH's of 0 to 14 under conditions of complete/full dissociation.
Reserve/Resistance to pH Change:
The capacity of a system to resist an upward (example 7.0 +) or downward (less than 7.0) pH is termed Alkalinity and Acidity respectively. The same quantity is in turn referred to as alkaline and acidic reserve. Read those last two sentences again, carefully. This understanding seems easily lost amongst aquarists.
In actual practice what happens is there are materials, chemicals suspended and dissolved and capable (like gravel, coral...) of dissolving (or going into solution), one's added intentionally as foods, treatments, source/tap water constituents that "fight" or resist change in pH. This is what we mean by buffering. Buffers aid/thwart efforts in changing chemistry/physics by resisting shifts (in pH in this case). This is the reason Alkalinity/Acidity tests must be applied in conjunction with simple pH, if much adjustment is needed/desired and/or you're dealing with expensive or sensitive livestock. There may be so much buffering capacity at different levels or points in the system's pH make-up that you may accidentally overshoot and drastically/tragically raise or lower the pH too much too soon. I cannot but begin to tell you how many times I've seen this happen. READ ON!
Biological Importance:
So all this being said and done, or at least written... so what? Allow me to present this pictograph:
Graph showing the relationship between pH and optimum efficiency:
100
Efficiency
(%)
0
7.0 7.2 7.4 7.6 7.8. 8.0
pH
In this graph I am trying to describe a hypothetical (but real and practical) relationship between a physiological function (like an enzyme system) efficiency and a range of pH. In the example you can see that peak efficiency is achieved only within a narrow limit, with function dropping off quickly at a slightly higher and lower pH.
This is the Real World! Fishes (& us!) are made up of these transient collections of enzyme systems; fundamentally that's what life is (at least one definition). These systems are affected (pro & con) by suitable 1) points, 2) limits & 3) slow changes in pH.
Maybe illustrating human blood pH phenomena is a good idea. Normal, acceptable range is something like 7.35 to 7.50 (pretty narrow, eh?); slightly basic. When/if you slow/stop ventilating your lungs, blood pH dips in sync. with build-up of carbon dioxide (CO2) in solution as carbonic acid. Alternatively, hyperventilating will blow off CO2, driving-up pH. Both conditions have their practical limits. Your blood has only so much buffering capacity and moderating mechanisms. At some juncture in moving your blood pH too much too fast you will stop, hopefully by ultimately only stopping doing whatever is causing the emergency shift or passing-out at which point your body will unconsciously shunt blood only to vital functions and allow restabilization.
Fish and other aquatic life are not as fortunate sometimes. Their metabolisms are often closely tied with the chemistry and physics of their surrounding medium (water). Too much, too soon shift or deviation in pH is dangerous! Fishes do have buffering mechanisms to resist these changes, especially sudden shifts in pH, but be warned! Healthy, conditioned livestock can weather such changes, but it will/does weaken them; & less-than-prepared organisms may be pushed over the edge. The challenge of ph shock may not/usually is not obvious at the time if the individuals survive, but other negative influences can/may cause their demise "mysteriously" within hours to days to weeks.
Certain events are particularly important to be on guard for pH shock; from system differences, pH adjustments, and "drift". Permit me to elaborate; I'm going to anyway.
KingwoodMarcia
New member
Sorry for double post.
KingwoodMarcia,
YIKES! Thanks for the chemistry lecture, but I'm pretty content with my working knowledge of these systems. I am NOT saying that modifying water prior to a FW dip is harmful, only that you don't need to do it! If you want to go through all that rigamarole, then fine - but the end result is going to be the same. If your tap water is not fit for human consumption, then by all means, use something else, but if the EPA has certified it for potable use, then it is well within the parameters for use as a FW dip...end of story!
Jay
YIKES! Thanks for the chemistry lecture, but I'm pretty content with my working knowledge of these systems. I am NOT saying that modifying water prior to a FW dip is harmful, only that you don't need to do it! If you want to go through all that rigamarole, then fine - but the end result is going to be the same. If your tap water is not fit for human consumption, then by all means, use something else, but if the EPA has certified it for potable use, then it is well within the parameters for use as a FW dip...end of story!
Jay
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