Garlic vs Ich
- Thread starter Ken_wied
- Start date
Andrew
Active member
"Garlic What has been studied Versus what has been claimed" By Steven Pro
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php
gooyferret
New member
Andrew do you know if he ever did controlled tests with garlic and the results? When was his article written?
Personally IMO his article is an opinion just like anyone elses one here with no concrete proof. The garlic extracts or at least Kent Garlic Xtreme dont say anything on preventing/curing Ich, on the bottle, only that its a Attractant and food supplement.
My opinion:
Does it hurt anything to add garlic? NO Is it expensive compared to anything in this hobby? No Very cheap $8 and lasts 6-12 months. Is it proven to kill Ich? No
Does it help? Well it sure cant hurt! Also a fish that is eating is far more likely to survive and have a more healthy immune system. If a fish has Ich and is not eating then you have a problem. As the Ich feeds off the fish for its reproductive cycle will only weaken the fish more. The fish needs that food and energy to fight off the next "wave" of ich.
I have always used garlic on my food, and always have. Not because of a "myth" but having sucess with it. Always used the same brand Kent garlic extreme. I bought an orange sholder tang a long time ago that was completely covered in ich. I purchased him that way on purpose. (very cheap)
Since I didnt have any other fish in my DT I added him, and only fed flake with garlic, and seaweed sheets. He complete recovered from ich about 2 weeks after and never got it again. None of the other fish later added got ich also.As a side note: If a research facility or Seaworld is going to spend $1,000's if not more on researching garlic, there must be some logic behind using it.
This is just my LONG opinion.... < Opinion is the key word, as I am not a scientist or expert. :lol:
gooyferret
New member
Seen or heard? And what do you mean by value?
*Just trying to get more info! :lol:
GrimReefer82
Roll Tide!!!
I have had many sick fish in the past that wouldn't eat for days. Every time I supplemented their diet with garlic they ate. Explain That! Also since I started using garlic my fish's ich has all disappeared and never returned. I'm not saying that garlic cures ich, what I am saying is that garlic has been proven many times over to be good for you and have a positive effect on your immune system. Why couldn't it have the same effect for fish? If you say it doesn't effect appetite then you are not very observant of your fish or you have never used it. When I go fishing I soak the bait in garlic and catch more fish then whoever is with me using the same bait and no garlic. IMO it's proven.
I am very obserbvant. I used it for over a year when I saw things though rose colored glasss.
You have no reason to be nasty when someone's opinion differs from yours. You can have your opinion for what it is worth . I have mine. I don't have to explain anything to you. I do not believe based on my experience and observatioon that garlic is very useful if at all. It' really not even worth the discussion. You like it ;use it. Don't attack people who don't share your limited point of view, it's stupid.
You have no reason to be nasty when someone's opinion differs from yours. You can have your opinion for what it is worth . I have mine. I don't have to explain anything to you. I do not believe based on my experience and observatioon that garlic is very useful if at all. It' really not even worth the discussion. You like it ;use it. Don't attack people who don't share your limited point of view, it's stupid.
gooyferret
New member
Ken the OP is really getting what he was asking for! A debate of opinions..
Its like drinking OJ when your sick... :lol:
TMZ, the article that Andrew posted actually states in his article that it does increase the immune system. In the one experiment it actually increased, and maintained the bacterial infection that they used for the study.. More than some of their other antibiotics.
I guess you could just let the fish not eat, dont add garlic and at least try....and let the fish die.... :rolleye1:
A few questions I have: Is there anything in this hobby that is proven 100%?
My friend Josh and I always have the debate on vodka and carbon source dosing....I dont believe in it and he does. I have had my tank setup (again) for 3-4 months his a couple years...I have better readings overall on my tank. How do you explain that, if carbon dosing is "proven" to work?
Its like drinking OJ when your sick... :lol:
TMZ, the article that Andrew posted actually states in his article that it does increase the immune system. In the one experiment it actually increased, and maintained the bacterial infection that they used for the study.. More than some of their other antibiotics.
I guess you could just let the fish not eat, dont add garlic and at least try....and let the fish die.... :rolleye1:
A few questions I have: Is there anything in this hobby that is proven 100%?
My friend Josh and I always have the debate on vodka and carbon source dosing....I dont believe in it and he does. I have had my tank setup (again) for 3-4 months his a couple years...I have better readings overall on my tank. How do you explain that, if carbon dosing is "proven" to work?
GrimReefer82
Roll Tide!!!
Wow you are touchy....I never attacked you! The only negative thing I said was that either you weren't very observant or you didn't use it. Maybe I was wrong. I apologize! JEEZ! It appears to me that your comments are a direct attack on me. The whole point of my post was to give my opinion just as you are entitled to yours.
TMZ please explain how I was nasty.
What makes my point of view limited?
You should reread your post and mine and adjust your attitude.
TMZ please explain how I was nasty.
What makes my point of view limited?
You should reread your post and mine and adjust your attitude.
gooyferret
New member
Dang this is getting good now! :lol: I might have to stay up all night!!
TMZ, if you haven't figured this out yet let me help....This entire hobby is all opinions. It has been proven to work but never in a complete controlled enviroment (who has the money to borrow me). You would have to have tons of different species, and many multiples of each to do accurate research on it.
I have used it with great results and for only $8 or so a bottle that lasts a long time why not use it?
Gooy
GrimReefer82
Roll Tide!!!
I'm not trying to fight with him.
gooyferret
New member
:lol:
I know its late, and im drinking too much Pepsi!
Although this is a good thread its just based on everyones individual opinions....Like most things in this hobby.
It has proven to me to work...thats all that matters.
We should get Mythbusters on this one! ASAP!
I stated my opinion. I don't see value in it. I stated I used it without mentioning you. You said I either didn't use it or was not observant. That's about me; not garlic and says I'm lying or not able to make observation and demonstrates a limited perspective intolerant of another's point of view in a particularly nasty way. I have used it, studied about it, observed closely and discontinued it without any changes in any changes in fish health. . In my experience and opinion it has no beneficial effect on marine fish other than a placebo effect. . You believe otherwise. That's ok by me.
jadeguppy
New member
I have used it with good results. I prefer the seachem garlic to other brands. After adding it to food, my sailfin that was very heavily infected appeared to have had many of the cycts fall off. This continued after feedings for several days. After getting garlic back in stock, I have not lost any fish or had an ick outbreak since. I probably add it to the food 2-3 times a week. The best way I can explain it is that mosquitoes and other such things will avoid a person who has eatten a lot of garlic. Perhaps the ick doesn't like the taste. 
rodcpierce
New member
i can just put a few drops in my tank and the fish go nuts. I treat all my food with it, and it will make the pickiest of eaters consume.
GrimReefer82
Roll Tide!!!
Seriously you read further into my post than you should have. Some people aren't very observant when they claim that they are. Doesn't mean my point of view is limited or that i stated anything nasty.
I would like to know what method of garlic supplementation you were using.
A fish doesn't get placebo effect from garlic. If they do then I would like to know how the fish knows that you are treating it for a parasite using garlic as a placebo.
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GrimReefer82
Roll Tide!!!
I have actually put a few drops of garlic extreme in my sump and seen my fish start going to the top and swimming back and forth looking for food when there was no food added.
Goo, I read that article several times . The study had many flaws and was based on injection not ingestion and did not have a control . It also used allicin not old preserved garlic juice wherein the active allicin would have expired . Allicin is created in the garlic clove ,used by it to protect itself from infection if the clove is bruised or damaged . It is only active for about an hour and then it breaks down.
I understand opinions . You are certainly entitled to one. So am I without acerbic commentary.. I think food soaked in commercial hobby product garlic concetrates has no immuno boosting value to marine fish. I observed no change in feeding response with or without garlic over the year I used it. That's my opinion and experience stated as such. You like it; use it. I hope it does some good and no harm for you.
Not to confuse opinion with fact but a bit of information on what garlic does and how it does it is probably relevant.
Garlic posses two elements to help it combat bacterial and fungal infections in case the clove is damaged or bruised. They are allin and and enzyme called allinase . They combine to form allicin which has an anti microbial not an anti parasitic effect(ich is a ciliate protozoan parasite). Allicin is only active for about an hour after the garlic is damaged/ crushed. This makes the use of commercial hobby products which are any thing but fresh of even more dubious benefit.
Further studies on humans have found garlic can irritate stomach cells . Can continuous long term use harm fish? Maybe. Probably just as if not more likely than it it can increase their immunity to parasites or even bacteria and fungus. If active allicin does somehow work it's way in a bioavailable form undestroyed by stomach acids to the fish's bloodstream and tissues ,why wouldn't it harm beneficial bacterial flora as well as bad? Many fish rely on intestinal microbial flora for digestion .Are there other things in garlic that may be beneficial?Maybe,but I don't think any have been identified.
So if it gives you some sense of comfort to use it and you believe it helps your fish ; use it. It may not do any harm and may do some good . I just don't think so . I'll stick to quarantine and proven treatments for diseases.
I understand opinions . You are certainly entitled to one. So am I without acerbic commentary.. I think food soaked in commercial hobby product garlic concetrates has no immuno boosting value to marine fish. I observed no change in feeding response with or without garlic over the year I used it. That's my opinion and experience stated as such. You like it; use it. I hope it does some good and no harm for you.
Not to confuse opinion with fact but a bit of information on what garlic does and how it does it is probably relevant.
Garlic posses two elements to help it combat bacterial and fungal infections in case the clove is damaged or bruised. They are allin and and enzyme called allinase . They combine to form allicin which has an anti microbial not an anti parasitic effect(ich is a ciliate protozoan parasite). Allicin is only active for about an hour after the garlic is damaged/ crushed. This makes the use of commercial hobby products which are any thing but fresh of even more dubious benefit.
Further studies on humans have found garlic can irritate stomach cells . Can continuous long term use harm fish? Maybe. Probably just as if not more likely than it it can increase their immunity to parasites or even bacteria and fungus. If active allicin does somehow work it's way in a bioavailable form undestroyed by stomach acids to the fish's bloodstream and tissues ,why wouldn't it harm beneficial bacterial flora as well as bad? Many fish rely on intestinal microbial flora for digestion .Are there other things in garlic that may be beneficial?Maybe,but I don't think any have been identified.
So if it gives you some sense of comfort to use it and you believe it helps your fish ; use it. It may not do any harm and may do some good . I just don't think so . I'll stick to quarantine and proven treatments for diseases.
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